This episode is with Ashley Love Richards and Fallon Morey, cohosts of TSFU the Podcast

Katherine and Fallon play a game with Ashley asking her Christian Clichés to see if she knows what they mean. We also discuss the perspectives Catholics and protestants have of one another, the origin of Alcoholics Anonymous (spoiler, it’s Christian), and whether or not AA is a cult. This conversation is comical and fun—and borderline irreverent.

Shoot Christians Say YouTube Video is the video we watch in this episode!

Katherine was interviewed in The New F Word Episode with TSFU.

Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email tearsofeden.org@gmail.com

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

Katherine: [00:00:00] I actually, hi, Fallon. Hi. These are my two friends that I just met through. That's a fucked up podcast, and we had a blast hanging out and, and, and interview doing an interview. I had a blast hanging out with them and doing an interview with them.

And so we decided to do this episode. Fallon grew up similar to me in

evangelicalism and Ashley did not. So we're going to play a game called Stuff Christians Say, where Fallon and I are going to introduce Christian sayings to Ashley and ask her what she thinks they mean. And this is a like Not a pass fail like no, like there's, there are no stakes here other than testing your Christian, your Christian knowledge before I, I'm going to play a video, a little video to, to get us warmed up, but before I do that.

Ashley and Fallon. I would love to hear what brings you here today. Ashley, go

Ashley: first. What's up, Kathryn? [00:01:00] Hey! Super excited to be here. So yeah, I have a podcast called that's so fucked up and it's about Colts and murder and other generally fucked up stuff.

Although I would say I primarily focus on Colts and coercive groups and I can high control groups. Obviously that's more where your podcast and your stories fit into. I saw Jesus camp 17 years ago when it came out in 2006. I saw a bunch of evangelical children being brainwashed at a camp to Take abortion out of the you know, take abortion rights away because a third of their fucking friends could have been there that night and they weren't.

And then I saw it 17 years later, like right after our abortion rights got taken away. And I was like, hold on, this is a long game. And then I saw shiny, happy [00:02:00] people and I've been obsessed with high control, coercive Christianity ever since. So I'm very excited to have met you through me and Fallon doing a segment called the new f word.

The f word was fundamentalism fundamentalism and Actually, it's really funny or it's actually really fun the episode that Catherine was on was called the new f word the C and F and E words Which sound like they're going to be really bad, but it was Christianity, nationalism, fundamentalism, and evangelicalism.

So, you know, really, I had a lot of fun. I thought that was fun.

Katherine: That was one of my funnest, my funnest or most fun. I don't know. Funnest, funnest episodes that I've ever, ever interviewed on. I had a great time with y'all.

Ashley: I wanted to make sure that we knew what the fuck we were talking about before we started [00:03:00] talking about it, because as you said, I have, I am not religious, I did not grow up with any religion, I have a Patreon segment where I learn about the Bible, it's called Ash Learns the Bible, because I knew about that one story, I think Solomon, where they try to cut the baby in half, and I was like, That is fucked up.

Is there other shit like that? Because I want to hear about it. So, basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Christianity has taken over my life somehow.

Katherine: That's an intellectual exercise.

Ashley: Yeah, not in That I'm involved with it, but I'm just fascinated and I'm fascinated

Katherine: when I meet people who didn't grow up the way that I did because it's so normal and it's so normalized and then as you mentioned on the episode that we did together that I will link in the show notes about How 80 percent of [00:04:00] the United States identifies as Christian, there's so much that's just like very inundated into the culture and most people have had some kind of like church experience.

And so when I can't encounter people who don't have any, any upbringing in that I'm fascinated by that. What was your life like? Yeah, it's like, oh! How did you, how did you do

Ashley: that? I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing that made my life different and a lot better that I definitely know, and Did I grow up with fear and shame as a child?

Yes, I grew up in a house with a narcissist. But, I tell you what, I was not afraid that any fuck up that I did was going to get me sent to hell. I didn't even know about hell, you know? Like, you guys were constantly in fear that you were going to go there. I didn't even know that it was a fucking thing. I think I saw all dogs go to heaven and...

I knew heaven was like a, probably a cool place for [00:05:00] dogs. Yeah. But that was the extent of my knowledge. Right. I love it. I love it. And it has been up until, up until pretty recently. I

Katherine: mean, you're going to know so many things after today, after our game today, the lingo. Yeah. And I, I, I, I'm now I'm like worried.

Is God going to judge us for playing this game?

Fallon: God is not going to judge us for playing this game.

Ashley: They loves it, but welcome

Katherine: Fallon. Tell us today.

Fallon: mainly to talk to you again, cause it was so fun the last time. But then also, like you said, I, I think I've told you before, but I grew up Catholic. So, you know, Catholics are very like religion at arm's length.

There's so many rules. There's very like, you know, you spend a lot of money and you go to mass and the mass has like exercises in it where you stand up and sit down a lot and kneel. And my mom used to, or my uncle used to call them the Pope's aerobics when he would go to [00:06:00] mass. And. Around like high school.

I started to hang out with Christian people who are more in the evangelical crowd, and I, I think I just wanted to be accepted by somebody.

Katherine: Pause. You said you hang out, you hung out with Christian people. Did you not consider yourself a Christian as a Catholic?

Fallon: No, not really. Because I wasn't, I wasn't really yourself.

Catholic. Yeah. Just Catholic. Like it was like it was I don't know, like it, like it was a nationality or something. Like I, I didn't have a concept of what it meant to be religious because I wasn't really connected to my religion. Like it like you had to go to the dentist, but you just had to do it more frequently.

It wasn't like a big deal to me. And then I, I wanted some, like. I want to say I wouldn't, wasn't like meaning and purpose to my life, but I ended up hanging out with kids that like went to church camps and did God stuff. So they bought me my first Bible, the little. [00:07:00] Like tie dyed teen study Bible everyone had in the mid nineties, you know, and They had like the little stories in it and they taught me all about purity culture.

Yay. And like good friends do and and then I sort of went on my own path and discovered You know, religion and church when I was in college and then in when I was in the Navy, I got like rebaptized again and I was like fully into it. I would say only about eight years ago, I stopped believing in going to church.

And I would call myself having been like evangelical during those years. And now I would call myself. I don't know. What is it called when you believe in a higher power, but not necessarily like the Christian

Katherine: God? Spiritual, but not religious. Yeah, that's

Fallon: a good

Ashley: way. Like I think that agnostic means that you believe in a higher power.

You just don't claim to know what that higher power is. And I don't know if something greater than you.

Fallon: Yeah. So I don't know if there's like a higher one power or if it's like the power of the [00:08:00] universe. I think there could be. You know, there's like weird forces out there. I believe in ghosts and maybe reincarnation and all that kind of stuff, but I don't subscribe to like a, a religion.

So I don't I don't find I need it anymore. But then I met Ashley like last year and somehow found myself on this crazy windy road to becoming one of her co hosts, which has been amazing. And we did this F word segment together where I got to meet you. So I think that's, I think that's my path.

That's my my journey here.

Katherine: As you were talking, I thought of two other things to add to the list. It's like, we can't just assume because like, we're too like, like, yes, we're more religious people, assuming that, you know, certain things, but I'm like, we can't assume that Ashley knows these things.

Ashley: Yeah, I actually had two quick questions.

So if you're re baptized, That means you're a born again Christian, which means you're evangelical, right? I just want to make [00:09:00] sure, do I have that right? It's a symbol,

Katherine: but could mean a lot of things. It

Fallon: could mean a lot of things.

Katherine: Like Presbyterians will baptize babies, and it's like a future hope. Like, we're hoping that they will be a Christian in the future, but it's not saying that the baby is a Christian.

Like Baptists will baptize someone as an adult because you have to be old enough to like make the decision yourself. And then that is a symbol that you are a Christian when you are baptized as an adult. So it's different for everybody, but it's like more like a

Ashley: ceremony. And so being born again, that doesn't equate to evangelicalism.

It is. It does. Yeah. It can be. Not always though. See, this shit is slippery. It is. I mean, what? I

Katherine: haven't heard of anyone outside of evangelicalism using born again

Fallon: though. No, that's really a, that's really a, an evangelical kind of terminology. [00:10:00] Which

Katherine: means that you have accepted Jesus into your heart.

Totally.

Ashley: Totally. Yeah. You guys, I put up a video the other day because I, I don't know if you saw it on the story, but it said, when you take your friend to church and they don't know what to do with their hands, and this girl is slowly doing the Macarena.

Katherine: that would 100 percent be me. I'd be like, I don't know what's happening.

Ashley: They're all raising their hands.

Katherine: I remember.

Fallon: Go ahead. Oh, I was going to say my stepfather was not a religious person and my mom used to make him try to go to mass. She quickly abandoned, but he would walk into the church and he, he would go, what am I supposed to do with water?

Like there's a bowl of water. What am I supposed to do with it? And I was like, stick your fingers in it and then blessed yourself. And he's like, what do you mean blessed yourself? And I, so we, we taught him up, down, left, right. And so then anytime we mentioned church for like [00:11:00] the rest of. Their marriage, we'd be like, we're going to church.

And he just like, yell up, down, left, right. Like that was his synonymous word for with church in church.

Katherine: Oh, yeah.

Ashley: I love it. But they told me that spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch was to help people to remember how to do the

Katherine: Austin

Fallon: powers told you that

Ashley: bitch. Another person, religious person

Katherine: told me that I swear, I swear,

Ashley: or I'm making weird shit up.

Also, you guys, the video I was just referring to, I believe was from Deuteronomemes, which is my favorite new account. I'm gonna follow them after. Fuck. You gotta go follow them. They put amazing Videos of like mega church pastors, wild and out and people going way too hard singing at church. Like it's, it's, it's really good stuff.

You guys,

Katherine: I'm going to, I'm going to follow them [00:12:00] after, but in preparation for this game, I'm going to play a little video for us and folks who grew up. Religious probably I've seen this video, but this is just going to get us warmed up real quick and let's get warm, share my screen. So I'm so

Ashley: excited

Katherine: and here we go.

Bless his heart. You think he's backsliding? I think I saw him drink. Yeah, but in moderation. I just wasn't seeing much fruit. He's going down a slippery slope. How's your heart, man? How's your heart? I'm just such a words guy. It was a total God thing. I'm blessed. Been working on my testimony. Is that secular music?

We're opening with a secular song tonight. Wait, is this a secular song? Isn't she secular? Which station is the fish? 104. 3, the fish. Safe for the whole family. You know he's a believer. I think he's saved. I just pray you'd give him traveling mercies. Pray for all powers unspokens. I echo that. I just really like to echo Pather's prayer, Father.

I echo that echo of my echo of his echo. I really [00:13:00] feel like I'm being released from this, you know? I'm trying to be relevant. I'm just trying to be in the world, not of it. Hey, do you want to join our small group? You want to join my D group? You want to join my cell group? Community group? Access group?

Accountability group? Axe 27 group? Dude, he brought it. He brought the word. That service last night rocked me. They're pretty purpose driven. Yeah, it's Seeker. Don't they do Seeker service there? I feel like he's gotten really watered down. I don't feel like he really teaches the word. It's just not enough meat, you know?

Are they non denom? We have a great Wednesday night supper. Let's invite some dudes over and fellowship tonight. We're gonna have a sick time of fellowshipping tonight. Dude, we had the sickest fellowship last night. We're going straight velocity. Ignite. Yeah, I'm going to ignite. The edge. The dive. The bridge.

The ramp. Fire. Courageous. Passion. Echo. Reverb. Noise. Velocity. Drive. Elevate. Radiate. 722. 635. 419. Orange. Blue. Yellow. Green. Clear. Neon. Catalyst Conference this year. I don't do that because I feel like it ruins my witness. Been struggling with that. I'm really wrestling with a, I'm wrestling with a doubt.

Need someone to hold me accountable. I'm really trying to be intentional with her. I'm [00:14:00] pursuing her, for sure. I'm trying to guard her heart. Guard her heart though, bro. Do you hold me accountable to that? Yeah, well, Bounce your ass. Dang it. Crap. Shoot. Sheesh. Frick. Darn it. What the H? Holy crap. Son of a bee sting.

Dude, he's really teeing me off. I'm gonna kick his ass. Are you assing me right now? Not cool. I find that offensive. I find that offensive. I find that

Fallon: offensive. Oh my god. I don't care how many times I watched that. I watched it right before you got on the call and I watched it yesterday and I still laugh every time, every time because it's, it's.

It's

Katherine: so real and that's literally how people talk though.

Ashley: Let's have some fellowship. I want to say that I understood

maybe about 20 percent of that.

Fallon: This game is going to be amazing. We should watch

Katherine: it again at the end and see if it makes [00:15:00] more sense.

Ashley: Although also, whoo, I got to say some of that brought me back to my AA days. A lot of fellowshipping and AA, a lot of great

Katherine: testimonial, you know, maybe in different words you know, but.

Mm. I have a suspicion that AA is a culti, is culti. Do you think AA is culti?

Ashley: I have a suspicion that I'm really irritated that culti shows don't want to talk to me more about my experience in AA because it was culti as fuck and people are like, Yeah. I don't want to put 12 step programs down. It's like, well, listen, if you knew what I was going to say, it would be that AA saved my life probably.

And I needed that

Katherine: accountability when

Ashley: I started. And then it became a little culty and maladaptive, so I'm not totally talking shit. Not everything that's culty is inherently bad, but

Katherine: well, that's kind of church [00:16:00]

Ashley: is pretty fucking culty motherfucker. Like I did wreck the words. The shit that I did recognize was either from.

AA or the Bachelor because they said a lot of like, what's on your heart in a season of the Bachelorette that I watched

Katherine: Are we ready?

Ashley: Are we ready? Ashley? I'm so ready. All

Katherine: right. I feel like we should have had a game

Ashley: sound. I'm excited as F

Katherine: all right. Take it away.

Fallon: All right. All right. If somebody said to you guard her heart, what does that

Ashley: mean? Be like be a man and make sure that you protect her. That's pretty close. Nailed it. Woo! One for one, Ashley. There's

Fallon: also, there's also a secret meaning which is in the dating, like, in the dating concept. I actually got this one from my husband.

It's like, guard her heart. Basically, don't have sex with her. Like,

Katherine: don't, don't stir up her emotions. [00:17:00] Yeah. Be a good Christian people. Make her want to have sex with you.

Fallon: Yeah. You know, those wily women, they might just want to have sex with everybody. Guard her heart.

Katherine: Okay. And then it's also used in a broader context of just like guard your heart against, you know, temptation, guard your heart against sin, guard your heart about, against desires and yeah, it's a very common, common, So, so

Ashley: you should be guarding her heart against sin and desire.

Yeah. Because you're the man and that's okay. Ew. I hate it. At first. I was like, no,

Katherine: that's cool. You're supposed to guard their eyes. So you're supposed to cover your body to guard your, your brother's eyes. Help him guard his eyes so that he wasn't led into temptation. Yeah. Yeah. You visually see

Ashley: the patriarchy is so strong already.

You guys, I can't

Katherine: get better.

Ashley: Good job. Good job, Ashley. Yay. I don't, I bet I feel like I [00:18:00] didn't get the second meaning, which was so much grosser. It's like, you know, those ladies and the crazy

Katherine: feelings. Oh,

Fallon: no. Well, we'll award points like the way they do on whose line. So we'll, you know, instead of a thousand for that one, you get 500.

All right. Okay.

Katherine: Next. Good job. Good job. You may already know this, but

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And now back to the show. All right. What does

Ashley: [00:19:00] backsliding mean? Okay. So again, I'm kind of thinking AA. Okay. You've made progress on something, and now you're not, you're not making progress anymore or you're maybe even going back into your bad habits.

Katherine: Yeah, I mean, I think it's similar. I think the word backsliding has this idea of like sliding back sliding back your old ways.

And so, yeah, but I think it can kind of be used interchangeably with any sort of like, it's like a slippery slope into into.

Ashley: Sin, if it's temptation and sin. Yeah.

Katherine: And like that was like a slippery slope in the churches that I grew up in, which are very patriarchal and women couldn't be pastors. If you like, let a woman teach on Sunday morning, it was like a slippery slope to like a woman.[00:20:00]

Having leadership and so it would be like a point of contention or a slippery slope would be like, you know, letting your child go to, if it was like, you're only supposed to homeschool your kids, but you let your kid go to a co op, that'd be like a slippery slope to putting your child in school or holding hands is like a slippery slope to having

Ashley: sex.

Oh, yeah.

Katherine: Quite any more to say I'm backsliding quite the

Fallon: jump. Yeah. I just have to wonder why there's so much sliding, like Christianity is on the mountain covered in Ky and you just,

Ashley: any minute you're just ready to like, just slide, slide

Katherine: down. Sliding. Well, there's an a lot of like going upward, like climbing the mountain right.

The heights. There's all this idea of like heaven being above and you're like climbing and you're moving upward and you're climbing the ladder. There's a lot of that. And so then sliding would be like you're sliding back down

Ashley: into the [00:21:00] mire. So if you like stopped praying as much or you started watching secular television.

Fallon: Yeah, that's the one.

Ashley: Whoa. Because I know what secular means. It means like of the non christian world, right? Right.

Fallon: I heard that meaning a lot more what Ash said, which is like somebody came into their belief later in life and they were doing really, really well. And usually they're like on fire for Jesus, right?

Like in the beginning. Oh, yeah. And then. When they're backsliding, it means like, Oh, they, they, I saw them hanging out with a friend who's not in church and I saw them go to the regular movie. So I think they might be backsliding into their

Ashley: secular life. You guys are fucking tripping me the fuck out right now because that is so AA too.

Like backsliding, slippery slope. If you're hanging out with. You know, your old friends who used to [00:22:00] drink and do drugs with that's a slippery slope. If you, if you, if you stop coming to as many meetings, you know, that might mean that you're out. Does AA have a

Katherine: foundation of Christianity? Like did Christianity?

Ashley: Well, motherfucker, I do know the Lord's prayer by heart. So you tell me, I would say big yes, hold on, hold on, hold, hold the phone, hold the phone. Hold on. Dear God. Give us our daily bread. Hold on. Give us our daily bread. Lead us not into temptation and walk through the valley.

Fallon: You've lost some of it.

I think over the years I haven't been to

Ashley: a fucking AA meeting in a long time, but I used to know that shit. Walk

Katherine: through the valley of the shadow of death. Amen.

Ashley: I take a look at my life and realize there's nothing left,

Katherine: [00:23:00] you know, coolio. Yeah. Yes.

Fallon: My guys. I was thinking Amish paradise from Ben's weird.

Owl

Ashley: lives living in an Amish bear. There you go. Love weird. Owl.

Fallon: Well, right now we're definitely backsliding because we're getting secular up in

here.

Ashley: Okay. No, but you guys, are you hearing how many AA connections

Katherine: there are? I wonder, I need to research this now. Did AA start by Christian found with a Christian foundation?

And is, is the prayer from AA that give me the courage to accept the

Ashley: things I cannot? Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Hold on. I know that one. That's the serenity prayer. God. I believe it starts with God. No. Yeah. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Is that, is that religious? Is that a religious poem?

Katherine: That, that is in religion and there will like that will happen, but like, I don't know which came [00:24:00] first. Did it come from AA into Christianity or did Christianity bring that into AA? I don't know. Shit bitch. I don't know. We should figure it out though. We have another podcast episode coming up.

Yeah, we do. Hey Fallon. So,

Fallon: If I say the term, a baby believer or a baby Christian, what does that mean?

Ashley: Like they just got indoctrinated. Yeah. God, you're so good at this.

Fallon: Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean a tiny baby who is also a

Ashley: Christian. Well, you guys, honestly, I think I've got a little bit of a leg up at this point. If we would have done this episode six months ago, I think that... Right. I probably would have been a lot more lost.

I'm not gonna lie. I've learned a lot about Christianity recently.

Katherine: We're gonna have to go to the hard ones.

Ashley: Yeah, we're gonna have to go to the hard ones. Oh, were you guys starting off with softballs? No, bring it.

Katherine: Yeah, okay, tell me what transubstantiation and the trinity

Ashley: are.[00:25:00]

Okay, good job. Well, you stumped me on A, okay? And the next one was what? Transubstantiation

Katherine: and the Trinity.

Ashley: Okay, the Trinity is the Father, Mary, and the Holy Ghost. Very close. It's the

Katherine: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, yes. The Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost. You got it.

Ashley: Hey, what's Holy Ghosting? Is that a thing?

Or is that a sex thing? What? Is that a sex thing? I heard it was like when you come on somebody's back and then leave.

Katherine: Is it that a Superman? Oh

Fallon: my God. The fact that both of you know more than one term for weird

Katherine: sex acts and she's like, no, it's

Fallon: not that weird. It's this other weird superman.

Ashley: We're thinking of the, the Dirty Sanchez, which I don't actually know what that is.

It's different.

Fallon: No, let's talk,

Ashley: talk about that. Life is about the rusty trombone,

Katherine: you know the trans substantiation? You [00:26:00] don't know what that

Ashley: is? No. Okay. The Trinity though. Yeah, that's father, son .

Katherine: Do you know that that means that God is three in one?

Ashley: He's the father and the. No, no, he's a, he's a buy one, get one free deal.

Buy one, get two free. Wow. That's a hot bargain. Hey, question is Jesus God? Yes. Yes. Okay. But I thought Jesus was like God's son. Also, yes. Also, yes.

Katherine: My uncle

Ashley: was my grandpa and my grandpa was my uncle too. Ding a ling What's going

Katherine: on here, dude? Alright, transubstantiation. Both Protestants and Catholics know this one. Transubstantiation means that when you're doing communion, Do you know what communion is? Do you know what communion

Ashley: is? Is that when you eat the...

The bread and the wine? Okay I'm sorry. Can we all just touch on how [00:27:00] fucking weird that is? Body and blood of Christ. Yep, give it to me. Put it in my mouth. I want to eat that and drink that. Are you kidding me? Nobody's fucking thinking this is weird?

Katherine: Yeah, it is weird. And what makes it weird, in my opinion, is transubstantiation and the, the Protestants know this because the Catholics actually believe that the bread and the wine become the body of blood of Christ when you are taking communion, but the Protestants see it as a symbol, not as like actual blood and wine.

And the Protestants know transubstantiation because we know that that is what differentiates us from the Catholics. And what makes the Catholics not Christian is because they believe in transubstantiation.

Fallon: Oh, yeah. Cause you guys will be like, what's so weird guys is they believe that like, that's actually Jesus's like leg or body. [00:28:00] And like I said to Catherine, what's weird is that they believe that God actually talked to them while they were like taking a dump this morning and told them what to do that day.

Ashley: Like go eat me.

Fallon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, no. Just like go to your church and say, God told me this morning that I should ask you guys each for five more dollars. Everyone goes, Oh, he must've actually told him like, that's weird. But the believing that that's Jesus's body is not weird. Whatever.

Ashley: You guys. Catholics are metal

as fuck, dude. It's wild. I'm sorry, but I have been reading some of the Bible and I'm pretty sure that he said cannibalism isn't cool. There you go. There you go. You guys, you know, the Bible, he doesn't God say, doesn't God say not to eat people? Yes. He says yes. He totally [00:29:00] does. I remember it. And they're just up, up there eating him every Sunday.

Catholics. I don't, I don't understand. Catholics

Fallon: believe that like basically set up their mass. So their weekly service is a mass. If anybody, I'm sure people listening to the show do know, but they, the mass is really every Sunday. Each week. A reenactment of part of the Last Supper, what they believe happened at the Last Supper of Jesus, which you'll get to in the second part of the Bible, and so they say, Jesus took the bread.

He gave you thanks and praise. I know the whole mass broke it and said, eat this. It is my body. You know, so he, they believe he said it and that's why they say it. And then they believe that when you wave your hands over the cauldron, it becomes the thing. Not there's no cauldron, but

Katherine: usually put clips of, of conversations, but I want to do that clip because Ashley's face.[00:30:00]

Ashley: What are you talking about? Oh, you guys. And that's Catherine. That's why it's witches are evil. Yeah. I was going to say also that it sounds like witchcraft. So like what? Yeah.

Fallon: Oh God, now I got to find a good one. Hold

Ashley: on. I know that. And that was, that

Katherine: was considered two. So we're at, I think five now.

So we

Ashley: have five more. So when you were, when you asked Callen, sorry, when you asked Fallon earlier, Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. So when you asked Fallon earlier, Oh, so as a Catholic, you don't consider yourself a Christian. I thought that was a very interesting question for you to ask because I thought that the big difference was.

Christians, there's a whole bunch of denominations like Protestant and whatnot. And Catholics just like rocked out on their [00:31:00] own. And they were like, listen, you guys can, or I think the Christians were like, this is too metal. We're going to do our own thing. Right. So it's kind of like Catholics versus Christians a little bit.

No.

Katherine: Well, I always heard it like Catholic versus Protestant and there would be people who would be like Catholics are not Christians. And then the Catholics that I knew got offended by that. And we're like, no, we're Christians. And like, you don't get to decide if we're a Christian or not. And worshiping Mary and transubstantiation were the main arguments about why Catholics weren't real Christians.

And so I grew up with Catholic relatives and, and it was always like, are they a Christian or are they not? And

Fallon: I would say largely like my thing was just, I never thought about my faith, like with that kind of question when I was younger, like church is just something you do. And Catholic church is not like.

You know, an evangelical service where like you, you might be crying and you're raising your hands and you're [00:32:00] singing moving songs, closing your eyes and you're like, somebody is preaching from their heart half the time, like Catholic has a very specific service. They have a book that gets published and it's basically like on this day you plug in this reading and it's the same every year and the church is always the same.

The priest gets like a little chunk of time in the middle to say whatever he wants, but that's it. There's no, there's no ad libbing throughout, and so it's not anything you can really attach your heart to, right? Not, not really. And this is, this

Ashley: is like three hours every Sunday? One hour. That's still too much.

One hour. That sounds boring as hell. I mean, honestly, I'd rather go listen to Omega Pastor fucking while out about I, I saw the best one the other day. He's like, We don't make it rain on booty cheeks. That was the first fucking thing he said. He said a whole other list of sinful things that they don't do.

That's hilarious. I just, but I do [00:33:00] remember that. And I was like, Amen. You know?

Fallon: Right. Ashley, I'm going to, I'm going to put a hedge of protection on you. What am I going to do?

Ashley: Well, I feel like it's something to do with protection.

Katherine: Another way would be saying the same would be like, I'm going to pray a hedge of protection over you.

Ashley: Is it like a a forest field, but it's a bush because God appeared as a board, a burning bush. I love

Katherine: it. I love that. That's really complex. It's very simple.

Ashley: Yeah. Basically. Is it not what I said? No, No,

Fallon: it's about protection and it's not really a force field. It's just, you're praying for protection, usually from like Satan, like something's happening in your life and the way I've heard it, Satan's about to get in, like Satan's attacking you from all sides. So I'm, I'm like the way I would surround my house with like a big hedge to keep, keep people [00:34:00] out.

And from looking in my windows, like I'm, I'm praying for like something to protect you from bad forces.

Ashley: Why does it have to be a hedge, though? Yeah, I don't

Fallon: understand the hedge either. I feel like, I feel like, if Satan is really this crazy, powerful being that can influence everything else, he could probably just whip out his chainsaw, right?

Like, get through some leaves. And just, like, right through that hedge, so.

Katherine: You were talking about that before we started. Yeah. About how hedges actually know that. Not that sturdy, but yes, I think a force field is kind of like a spiritual field

Ashley: like you are. Yeah, that's, that's kind of witchy though, you know.

Yeah. Oh, oh, for sure. They would stone me to death or something for that. Hey,

Katherine: I've been asking for y'all to help me find a witch to cast a protection spell.

Ashley: Right? And I was like, I'm a baby witch. I'll buy a book.

Katherine: And as I was looking at the like online, I was like, this is just prayer. Oh my God. This is just [00:35:00] praying like, Oh no, I

Ashley: want to read you some of the, the prayers, the spells.

Oh my God. They sound like prayers. Oh my God. I want to read you some. Not of this one. Spell or prayer. We'll do it after. On

Katherine: that note. If someone were to say I have a check in my spirit, what, what, what do they mean?

Ashley: That they feel like they have accountability within them. Like somebody's checking their spirit, but it's, it's, it's like God within their heart or Jesus. Or whatever. You guys, I'm killing this Christianity game. Yeah. I think I'm so proud of myself. I think

Fallon: I said on a previous episode that you might be a better Christian than any of us at this point.

And it's highly possible that knowledge alone, that might be absolutely

Ashley: true. I'm well, because I didn't grow up with it. You guys, I'm fascinated. I'm like, that's

Katherine: probably like, you're probably retaining it a lot more because it's [00:36:00] fascinating. Whereas we grew up with it and it was just like everyday jargon.

Yeah. And like, we've never had to like explain it to somebody before, but you're learning it in a way. In which you can like explain it to somebody and check in spirit. My grandmother used to say that all the time, just like check your spirit or mind the checks, mind the checks in your spirit, which was like, basically the, yeah, like the Holy Spirit was like speaking to you to tell you something was like dangerous or, you know, stay away from it, or basically intuition, but the Jesus, Jesus version,

Ashley: I'm thinking about how scary it is as somebody with a fucking.

Jesus Christ. Am I right? And how many people in coercive controlling religious groups are being told constantly that they're going to hell and then if they have PTSD or any kind of mental mental illness. People, they're [00:37:00] just told to pray it away. I'm imagining having the mental health issues that I do and being in a situation where everybody around me was like, that's not real, or that's the devil getting you.

Like, holy fucking fuck. That sounds so scary. I'm just imagining if I, like my brain's crazy. And I think if the, if his enough people were telling me that my panic disorder and shit is the devil fucking believe that and they'll be scared the fuck

Katherine: out of me, dude. Oh, absolutely. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.

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Fallon: So Ashley, I'm going to ask you, what are your, what are your unspokens?

If I say that, if I say unspoken, what are, what am I talking

Katherine: about? Yeah.

Ashley: Unspoken

Fallon: or I pray for your unspokens. .

Ashley: Oh, thank you. Context. It's like the shit you don't say that you did because it's, it's a, sins be,

Fallon: could be. Usually they're talking about unspoken prayer requests.

Ashley: Like

Katherine: the things that you don't know that you need prayer

Fallon: for.

Yeah. Yeah. Like either I'm thinking about it and I don't want you to know that I'm praying for it or all of like, if I'm like, I pray for all of Catherine's unspokens, it means that I'm praying for all of the stuff she actually needs that she doesn't know she needs. And maybe. Oh, but you know, your pastor may know that you need more than, than you do.

Right. Like pray for all that shit too. So

Katherine: I was 29 years [00:39:00] old, a missionary woman prayed over me and, and she prophesied that I would get married and I would have this, like, we would be like this power couple. And this was like, Almost 10 years ago.

Ashley: Where's your Christian power husband? Where is my Christian power spouse?

Where

Fallon: is your Christian power husband? That sounds like an action figure that we need to develop.

Katherine: But I just remember it being like, they're going to be a power couple lord. A power couple lord. He has a

Fallon: starched white shirt with two buttons.

Ashley: Okay, bitch. Listen, I'm about to throw some terminology down. Is that prosperity gospel?

Not

Fallon: really. Prosperity gospel is more like.

Ashley: Is that like being rich means you're close to God? Yes.

Katherine: Ish. That's prosperity gospel. Yeah. Like God is blessing

Fallon: your life. Or it's okay to have abundant money and not necessarily like help every person with it and keep it for yourself because [00:40:00] God wants you to be rich.

That's what the MLMs like to

Ashley: use. That's some televangelist type shit, right?

Fallon: Yeah. The ones that raise money. Like

Ashley: the guy who has all the planes. Who's that guy? He's big on TV. Olsteen? Probably. Like, he's really fucking rich because he preaches on TV and people are super

Fallon: into it. I don't know if Joel Osteen, maybe there's a few of them, Joel Osteen's the pastor in Texas, right?

And he has like, he has like a giant super mega complex house and like millions and millions of dollars and huge church. Yeah. He's a big prosperity gospel person. Amway likes to tell you to read him.

Ashley: He's a, he's a prosperity. No, no, no. Joel Osteen is a televangelist. So yeah, I think he is the one who's.

Yeah. With the

Katherine: plane. So razy rich. Oh, and

Ashley: like. the planes? I think so. What

Katherine: does it mean to be in the world,

Ashley: but not of it? Okay. So I feel like that means that you have to go to [00:41:00] work, right? And you have to, you have to do stuff that's in the world. But don't let the secular people drag you into their sin because you should be.

More in like the godly world and so it's saying be in the secular world because like you have to also you have to tell people that Jesus is what's up and you know, you got to go out there and like proselytize and let people know that like Catherine I learned this from you that if you're doing good work in the workplace, you're doing it for Jesus Christ.

Did I, did I nail it? Oh, you

Katherine: totally nailed it. 100%, 100 points. 100 of the points. 100 percent of the points. I feel like

Ashley: an amazing Christian right now.

Fallon: You are. You would have giant.

Katherine: You are halfway up the mountain to

Ashley: the kingdom. You guys, I'm on fucking fire for Christ right now. [00:42:00]

Fallon: I need that on a t shirt.

I'm on

Katherine: fire, Ashley. You're a burning. Oh yeah.

Ashley: Oh, I mean, ignite me baby. Cause I can't, I can't get hotter for Jesus. All right. Yeah.

Fallon: Yeah. Anyhow, I think, I think you, cause the last one, the last one, I've had so much fun. Oh my gosh. But you're too good at this. It would be so much better if you were like baby believers are tiny babies that somehow believe like that would have been funny.

Yeah.

Ashley: You guys, you guys didn't know that I was going to fucking bring that, that passion of the Christ heat. You're like a super agent.

Fallon: You are. You're a sleeper agent for Christ.

Ashley: Okay, that's a t shirt.

Katherine: That's a t shirt.

All right.

Fallon: So, I'm gonna end with this one. I'm pretty sure you'll get it. But, if I say, God put it on my heart. [00:43:00]

Ashley: Okay, this is one of the things that I told you I learned from The Bachelor. So, when God puts something on your heart, it means you, like, really need to speak to somebody about something, because if God puts that on your heart, like, fuck, that means you got to do it.

Right? Yeah. That's good. And like people on the bachelor. No one can argue with you about it. No. Yeah. Cause people on the bachelor would weirdly have God put it on their heart that they had to go see the bachelorette like after the rose ceremony. Like God put it on my heart and I needed to come here and yeah, God put it on my heart to come get to know you better.

Yeah,

Fallon: exactly. Somebody justifies their actions by implying that God told them to do a certain thing a certain way or say a certain thing. And like Catherine said, that's the big piece. You can't argue with me because it's from God. Right. Right. God tacked this post it note to my chest that said, you know, I need to, to tell you you're a [00:44:00] jerk or whatever.

And like, I

Ashley: must be, because that's funny because God put it on my heart to Fuckin talk about all of these fucks and expose them for the fuckin dick tits they are. Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly, right? Heavy on the allegedly's. That's what,

Katherine: It gets really funky in the dating community. When I'm going to be like, the Lord told me that we were going to get married and they would like tell the person that, or it was like a common, like commonly used excuse for women.

If they didn't want to date somebody, if someone asked them out, it should be like the Lord, the Lord wants me to be single right now. Like God

Ashley: doesn't want, I like that. I would use that even as a secular woman. I'd be like weirdly, I just got in touch with Christ. He put it on my heart to Not date you.

Yeah I, I gotta I just have to trust the Lord on this

Katherine: one. Yeah, no. Yeah, but then strangely, six months later, suddenly God was okay with them being in a relationship.

Ashley: [00:45:00] Yeah. I like that. I kind of like that though.

Fallon: I

Ashley: know. Well, Catherine, that's why I wanted you to look into Twin Flames universe. Because I think that's exactly the, the idea.

That they're running on because I was watching this documentary on Amazon Prime, you guys, it's really great. And I was like, why are they fucking bringing Christianity into this? This is about finding like your soulmate, which actually seems more like some woowoo shit, blah, blah, blah. And it's because they encourage you to stalk your love interest, because if God's put it On your heart to love them.

That means you're supposed to be together and you should pursue them until they realize that that's the correct thing.

Katherine: I know a lot of relationships that turned out that way. Like the, the guy just stalked her for years or the, or the woman did the same thing, like just like hung out for years and years.

Like, [00:46:00] I believe, I believe the Lord has us together. My

Fallon: spiritual gift is stalking.

Ashley: Mine is patience or whatever. Women always get your mercy. Oh, yeah.

Fallon: You're a mercy giver. Patience is definitely not my spiritual gift.

Katherine: All of my spiritual gifts were gifts that women weren't supposed to have like leadership. And

Ashley: why did you get hooked up with those?

Katherine: Yeah, man. Talk to God about that one.

Ashley: You're like, bitch. He put it on their hearts. I don't know.

Katherine: He gave me these gifts and then he gave me boobs. What up?

Ashley: What? Everyone was confused. Okay,

Katherine: so Ashley, how did you feel about this game? I feel like you got at least an A. I feel like I

Ashley: think I know Christianity better than I thought I did. You

Katherine: definitely.

I

Ashley: might know more than some Christians at

Fallon: this point. I think it's [00:47:00] amazing that, you know, you don't even know, like, it's not even that, you know, like Christianity, you know, like Christian slang,

Katherine: that's you're in the world. You are in the

Ashley: world, but I'm not of it. You guys. Okay. Let's get it straight. No secular music or entertainment up in this house.

I only produce the content. Do not listen. Don't listen to it. Good for you. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You're so holy. You're holy. Holy, holy. I'm holy ghosted Later. So you're holy. Ghosted. . Yeah, . So, Ashley, I don't wanna know,

Katherine: I'm curious, like, what is your feeling about these phrases? Like, did they come across as like, just like super weird and like, this is like this?

Or is it like, oh, this is normal. This is just

Ashley: culture? Well, like I said, part of it felt super familiar because of aa. Which I'm like, yeah,

Katherine: I think that shit's, like,

Ashley: pretty Christian, though. I did say the [00:48:00] Lord's Prayer quite a few times. And... I just also remember a conversation that I had with my mom where she was like, that sounds pretty Christian.

And I was like, no, you don't get it. It's a spiritual organization and like how people in Colts always really argue with people that they're not. We're not, we're not a cold. We're not though. You know, it's like we just have these meetings and you know, the fellowship tonight was like tight as fuck.

You don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. So what I think I do notice, Not so much that it's weird, but that it's culty because one of the big hallmarks of cults is having your own fucking lingo that outsiders don't understand.

Fallon: Great way to keep people who you don't want out out and a great way to keep people who you've got in because everyone likes to feel like they know the group speak, right?

Oh my

Ashley: god, you know, it'd be so fun if I asked you guys if you knew what these AA sayings [00:49:00] meant. Like first things first. Yeah. Anybody? Is that

Katherine: from AA? It is.

Ashley: Yeah, it is. Take a stab.

Katherine: Just focus on what you have in front of you and don't worry about the rest.

Ashley: Yeah. You nailed it. Yeah, basically like so if you, so a lot of people will like get sober and then also become a vegetarian who goes to the gym six times a week and doesn't smoke anymore.

So that is, Oh yes, they just replace the addiction with something else. Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know first things first means, so like if it can mean. Just don't get overwhelmed with everything and just take care of what's most important first. And it can also mean, like, if you're trying to quit alcohol, wait until you feel comfortable with that before you try to quit cigarettes or whatever.

Because, super easy to backslide, very slippery slope. [00:50:00]

Fallon: But you know what? I've heard that when I started, like, when I got came, like, started to go back into like deep Christianity when I was in the Navy, shut up. I heard that from somebody who was like, well, I heard including a God put it on my heart. But he was like, when I first became a Christian, I had it put on my heart that I should only focus on one thing at a time. So like my, he was like, so I would encourage you to only focus on following God for one year and no dating and no thinking about romance for one year, because otherwise you can't be sure that you're doing like that thing correctly.

So yeah, that. That shows up. Like, if you're a new Christian, focus on being a Christian, don't focus on trying to date and, you know, do this,

Ashley: stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. That is what they say in AA too. They say for your first year, don't date. Don't. All right. I'm going to, I'm going to

Katherine: Google it. Does AA.

Oh

Ashley: my God. I'm freaking out. You guys, I was. [00:51:00] So much more

Katherine: in a cult than I thought

Fallon: what? No, you were just a Christian for

Katherine: a while. I love that Christianity informed your view of AA being a cult. I'm like, oh my god. Oh my god. The similarities

Fallon: are meeting through AA's immediate precursor The Christian Revivalist Oxford Group, they and other alcoholics fellowship there until forming what became

Ashley: AA.

Okay, that's the thing. They realized that the altruistic Christian model, they are. That's what it says somewhere.

Katherine: An altruistic Christian movement is what it says.

Ashley: Shut the fuck up. Shut the

Katherine: fuck up. Where? The end 1935 when

Ashley: it was founded. Okay, so, okay, now I'm starting to remember Bill Wilson the big book.

Bill Wilson of, also the big book the Bible of AA. Bill Wilson, our charismatic leader who gets celebrated on his birthday.

Katherine: Like,

Ashley: like. There's often [00:52:00] a picture of him in the rooms. Oh my

Katherine: gosh, this is such a

Ashley: cold. Freaking out. I, that is why I'm a good Christian. I fucking was a good

Fallon: Christian for quite a while.

Catherine. I almost feel like I need to be like, you need a whole a episode and we should stop this

Ashley: here. Yeah. No, we

Katherine: got to stop now. Cause this is crazy. Christian and the ASF. But I definitely think you should do an AA episode for that's a fucked up. You should definitely do that. I think it sounds it. It sounds like everyone I know who's been through AA when they would like tell the stories, I would be like, that sounds like so shaming.

And so like behavior oriented and it sounds so like restrictive. And so I'm just like scarcity mindset and just like, it doesn't sound like human to some extent.

Ashley: No, I'm like, I'm like tripping out. I'm making like so many [00:53:00] wild connections right now. Oh my God. And especially

Katherine: because typically what leads to addiction is trauma and it didn't sound like there was any depth into addressing the

Ashley: trauma.

Well, this is fun. And you, when you do your steps, one of the steps is to. Admit all of the ways that you've wronged everybody in your life. And I said, what about my mother who abused me? And they said, well, you have to find your part in that, which is that as a 30 something year old woman, you're still holding on to that resentment.

Whoa,

Katherine: that's straight out of Christianity. Straight.

Ashley: Also every night you're supposed to write an inventory, which is like all the ways that you had fucked up that day. That's like shame based. Yeah, if, if you get out, if you're out of the program, when you come back in, you have to take a newcomer chip and be like, yeah, after 10 years of sobriety, I drank for one day and now I'm a newcomer and that [00:54:00] whole 10 years is gone and everybody's like, everybody's like, yay.

And you're like, okay, cool. Like I'm getting love bombed by the group. I'm glad to be here. This is the only way to stay sober because in AA, there's only one truth is the only way to stay sober.

Katherine: So AA becomes the new

Fallon: addiction. Hey, Oh my gosh. Yeah. We got to talk about this. Wow. Okay.

Katherine: This is a whole new episode, but yeah.

So in conclusion, Ashley, any final thoughts, Fallon, any

Fallon: final thoughts? No, this was really fun. We're glad to get back together. Well, I was, I think I speak for both of us. So glad to get back together with you. And it was really fun to see Ashley unravel all my expectations that she wouldn't know Christian

Ashley: lingo.

So, and to see Ashley. Fully realized that she was in a Christian cult for multiple. I mean, that doesn't make me

Fallon: happy, but yes, it was

Ashley: but

Katherine: it solves the mystery for me as I'm like hearing people's stories. I'm like, that sounds cool.

Ashley: [00:55:00] Yeah, but

Katherine: I can't say that because so many people like worship AA and found it so helpful.

Ashley: . I think I'm finding that I want to say what the fuck I want to say and say, I said what I said, but I will be honest as well and say.

I think at times it was really fucking helpful. I think at times I needed that. I think some people, legit, that is the only fucking way for them to stay sober, is with that level of accountability, and trying to like, get out of their narcissism by finding that there is something bigger than them and they're not the center of the universe.

So I do say it with the, I mean, Like I always say, cults are on a spectrum. They're not always super harmful and coercive. But, is that shit culty as fuck? Yeah. And, like I said, it was really helpful for a while. And then it became maladaptive, which is when I felt shamed. Because I smoked weed. [00:56:00] Because I got sunstroke and was like violently throwing up and I understand the medicinal properties of marijuana and then they were like, yeah, you went out and I was like, no, I didn't.

And I actually left because I wasn't going to let this fucking group of people tell me that I had that my sobriety was fucked. I was like, no. Actually, it's not. So, fuck you guys. I'm out. And now I've been sober for, if we're not going by AA time, about nine fucking years. I've had a couple drinks in between.

I think I went like one year, actually, probably drinking. That does not negate the other fucking eight. Yeah. Where I did not pick up a drink. So, you know, it's, I heard something really interesting. And I think that you were in a cold. depending on whether or not you Think or decide you were in a cult. I thought that was very interesting.

Like it's not really up to other people to tell you that you were in a cult because maybe you were and you had a great time. Like maybe that one fucking [00:57:00] Scientology or NXIVM class that you took at the very low level and you never went into the organization. Maybe that class helped you, you know, so.

Katherine: Exactly. And, and, and I think that that is the opposite of fundamentalism when you can kind of hold those things together and just be like, it was helpful. But the organization itself is harmful

Ashley: and yeah, because life's not black and white, right? Like there's a lot more

Katherine: gray. I can say the foundation of evangelicalism, I believe is problematic, but I'm not going to, but I can also say people I know go to church and have a good experience and they genuinely have a good experience and it helps them be a better person.

So right. Both of those things can be true at

Ashley: the same time. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I think that's a great place to end. Me too. Thanks everyone for being here. Yeah, you guys, and

If you guys have not checked out Catherine's episode on our feed, please do follow us on That's So Fucked Up. We're on all the platforms where you listen to podcasts. We did a six episode [00:58:00] series on Christian fundamentalism. One with Catherine. It was awesome. So check that out and Catherine, thank you so much for having us.

Thank you

Katherine: for being here guys. This was so fun.

Ashley: Hell yeah.

Katherine: Christianity.

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