In this episode LMScast, Erica Nash has taught the creation of courses, web design, and design in general for a long time.

Erica Nash, an web designer and course creator with a lot of experience. She is motivated by her passion of learning and her conviction in the potential of education to change people’s lives. whether she is teaching high school or operating her own company.

She shows you where to go and she shows where to go. Erica emphasizes the importance of creating actionable and engaging courses tailored to the learners’ needs, highlighting strategies like scaffolding to build confidence. Erica also discusses her brand-new Course Builder Live tool, which leverages AI to accelerate course production, making subject-matter experts more helpful and easily accessible. Her technique emphasizes on providing students with current, meaningful knowledge at the appropriate moment to help them learn and interact with one another.

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Episode Transcript

Chris Badgett: You’ve come to the right place. If you’re looking to create, launch, and scale a high value online training program. I’m your guide, Chris Badgett. I’m the co founder of Lifter LMS, the most powerful learning management system for WordPress. Stay to the end. I’ve got something special for you. Enjoy the show.

Hello and welcome back to another episode of LMScast. I’m joined by a special guest. Her name is Erica Nash. You can find her at Erica Nash. com. This is going to be a great conversation. Erica is a combination of a teacher, instructional designer, website building, professional designer, and she’s a course creator and coach, but first welcome to the show, Erica.

Erica Nash: Thank you for having me, Chris.

Chris Badgett: I consider you really lucky in the sense that you possess, all what I call all the hats to, you know, be successful as what I call an education entrepreneur. Um, and you really have developed in all those areas. Can you tell us kind of your story of. You know, learning how to teach, learning how to build websites and do graphic design and then becoming a course creator and coach yourself.

I know that’s a big story, probably, but let’s, let’s get into it. How

Erica Nash: did we can dive in for sure? Um, I guess at the root of everything, like if I was going to sum it up in one sentence, it would just be that I love to learn and I believe that education is really, really powerful and it changes people’s lives, and we just live in a time where we have access to all of this information, and so I’m like, why would I not learn how to do this?

Like if I’m interested in this over here and that over there and that over there, why would I not learn how to do those things? And so that’s probably the, like, I don’t know, seed of the entire story. Um, but Yeah, my, my, um, my 1st career, I guess you could say was as a teacher. I taught high school. Well, I taught I’ve taught K through 12, except for 7th grade.

Uh, I taught for 10 years and it was a blast. I loved it so much. Um, the majority of my experience was with high school students. And so I got to see how they were. I taught culinary arts. And so my goal was always to teach them, uh, life skills. So it was like, when you leave this classroom, are you going to be able to cook for yourself?

Are you going to be able to start a business cooking for others? Are you going to be able to work in a restaurant? You know, your life requires that at any point. Um, and so it was really awesome being able to see how close they were to leaving home and using the skills that I was teaching them and truly putting them into practice, whether it was working at a restaurant as a high school student, or, um, you know, going on and, and using those skills after they left, whether it was for, you know, survival and that they were making themselves food or they were earning money doing that.

And so. That was kind of the beginning of, um, my desire to like, okay, how, how can education continue to affect people long after they leave the classroom and not just in a classroom setting? Like, you know, we can learn in any setting and it doesn’t have It doesn’t make it more, uh, powerful or better if it’s in a classroom, like we can learn from YouTube.

We can learn from TikTok. We can learn from anybody who creates a course or educational content and, and you put it, puts it out into the world. And, uh, and so that that was sort of that piece, and I have always been, uh, creative. I love, I’ve loved drawing since for as long as I can remember. And, uh, I started designing, um, When I was in high school, and so I have been designing for a really long time, and, uh, it wasn’t until I, I don’t know, probably my mid 20s that I was that I thought to myself, oh, this could really be something.

Like I could really use this to create income to help other people. Um, because before then I really didn’t see it as it was just a hobby. It was just something for me and it was fun. Um, there’s been a long journey of that. We, we don’t necessarily have to get into it, but like, that’s really kind of where, where that started.

And then I was creating businesses, um, like for myself. So I was creating my. Branding my website and stuff like that. And then people were seeing what I was doing and were like, Hey, like, you know, how did you do that? Or can you do that for me, Or can you help me with that? or like, you know, sort of those sorts of questions.

And, uh, there’s been a lot of ups and downs, you know, as a teacher, it can be kind of challenging to see life outside the classroom. And so it was, it, there were points in there where it was like. I don’t know if this is actually possible for me to create a life for myself outside of teaching and, and really fully living a creative life that creates a sustainable income.

That was really challenging. But fast forward to 2021 life sort of at its own plan and I had to leave the classroom, not really by choice. It was my 10th year was having some health issues. It’s the height of cobit. Right? Things were just wild. I was sort of forced to leave by my because of my health.

I was like, okay, like, we’re just going to go all in on, you know, this, this, um, graphic design, web design stuff. Found some amazing people, a community that, um, you know, really supported me along the way and my development and, uh, that transition was really difficult because sort of had a little bit of an identity crisis because I left the classroom.

And now it was like this creative business owner that I was never really sure I was going to get to be. I, in theory, it always sounded great, but now that it was reality, it was like, I have no idea what I’m doing. And, uh, so, so in the sort of process of figuring out, you know, now where I fit in the world now, what do I call myself?

Like those sorts of questions. I figured out that my teaching experience. Didn’t have to just sort of end and go by the wayside. And so I, um, continued to do the design and, and, you know, the graphic design, the web design and all of that stuff. But I also found a space where I was like, able to pull in my teaching experience and in creating my own courses and things like that.

And saw how valuable that was to, I mean, I had been purchasing, this was in 2021, I had been purchasing online courses to learn different things since like 2013. And so it was like a light bulb moment because I hadn’t really made that connection before. Like, of course I could help with that too. And so, uh, at the end of 2021, uh, that’s when I sort of made that like.

Sort of half pivot into into that area and, um, a coach that I had, uh, Shannon matter, and she became a client and we worked on her curriculum and then it turned into, um. A client success coach position and, uh, and now I also help coaches with client success in their programs as well. And so it has been quite a ride and it is, and you’re right.

It is a lot of hats, but it’s been so incredible to be able to enter business and engage in business as my whole self.

Chris Badgett: Oh, that’s awesome. What a cool story. And I know what that feels like. Uh, you know, it’s the imposter syndrome. I don’t know what I’m doing. You’re building the airplane on the way down.

And I think it’s really cool. You found community and reshaped your identity. These are all like really hard things.

Erica Nash: Yeah.

Chris Badgett: Um, now I have a bunch of questions based on that story. Okay. So To help people who are, uh, you know, outlining a course and they have no teaching background, what are some fundamental concepts of instructional design?

If you, if you could just pass along, you know, some key things for Like, okay, I’m an expert in gardening or cooking, but I’m not a teacher. How do I create my course outline? I know on your website, I see the register for course builder live. So feel free to mention what that’s all about. But I see a lot of experts, subject matter experts challenged with actually.

Teaching and kind of getting through that roadblock. What are some tools and ideas to help with that?

Erica Nash: Oh, my gosh, this is such a good question. And I could talk about this forever. Um, the 1st thing I would say is that the major problem that I see when it comes to figuring out how to put a course, whether it’s a course outline or or, um.

Like, creating all of the content for the course is that there’s too much information and it typically happens for 1 of 2 reasons, either just out of, like, a sense of generosity. Like, they truly just want to, like, give their audience the best and the most information. Um, and then on the other side, where it’s just as an expert, sometimes we, we see all of the connections with all of the pieces.

We deem them important, but they might not be important to the audience and the specific goal that they’re coming to you for. So you have to figure out which pieces are not necessarily relevant immediately and and get rid of those. It can be so difficult. Like that. That is, I think, truly the most challenging part of putting a course together.

Is this idea of not being married to all of the ideas that you have about this specific thing and how it should be taught and really, and like, this would be another, like, sort of step 2 is really getting to know your ideal client and talking to them and asking them. All kinds of questions and really getting to the root of.

What it is they’re coming to you for and like, okay, how can we streamline this in the most efficient way possible? So that it is the least amount of information they need to achieve whatever it is that they are, you know, joining your course for and so really kind of looking at. their end goal and working backwards and only including, you know, what is necessary.

So those would be, those would be the top two things. Um, Course Builder Live is, this is, so this is, today is, what is today? June 11th. And so this is happening on June 13th, so Thursday. Um, and I, so I love, Being really efficient and, uh, minimizing the time it takes to do things. I am just very conscious of my own time and, you know, my clients, they’re, they’re busy, ambitious people.

And so it’s also important for them to be able to sort of collapse the time it takes for them to do things. So Course Builder Live is, uh, a live demonstration Of course, outlining process I built, uh, earlier in the winter, I built a, uh, custom that is a, it’s essentially my instructional design brain inside.

Um, the GPT and it, it, it, I have fed it with all kinds of research based educational practices, my specific course building process and the things that I ask and look for and, and the way that we put it together. And, uh, I have successfully tested it. It has been, I could get really nerdy about it, but it’s been really fun.

And it’s, it’s such a cool. It’s such a cool way to take the course planning process. I’ve taken what could take weeks, what has taken weeks in the past, this sort of back and forth with clients and figuring out this outline and, and sort of what’s best. And I’ve gotten it down to under an hour, a lot of times half an hour, but under an hour.

So it’s been really cool. So that’s what that is. That is a live demonstration of that. And, uh, and, you know, that that’s, and I’m going to preface this also by saying that chat GPT using chat GPT to outline a course is not always going to be super helpful because. A lot of times it’s going to be like that expert and give you like the super, super bloated, not really targeted outline of information.

Some of it may or may not be relevant. And so, so the difference between, you know, the 2 is that, like, this is specifically designed to, like, minimize. The information and get really targeted and ask really specific questions. Um, and so we can talk more about AI if, if you’re interested in, in kind of talking about that regarding course creation.

But, um, as far as tools, it can be a great tool. If you know what information to feed it and what questions to ask it.

Chris Badgett: Could you provide an example there? Like, let’s say I was an investor and I wanted to teach people how to invest for retirement. If I just go to chat GBT and I’m say, write me a course outline for a course about investing for retirement.

What’s an example of your custom GPT and how it would, you know, not just take out where you wouldn’t just go for that five second response and be like, cool. I got the outline.

Erica Nash: Yeah. So. You know, with the sort of five second response, it’s going to give you, it’s going to give you so much information and it’s going to be really general information.

So it is going to be for, um, it, it, it may be for high level investors that maybe have multimillion dollar, you know, like budgets, it might be for, you know, the, the newbie investor that is just learning what. You know, terms are and things like that. And so it’s going to give you like a huge span of, uh, of information and it’s going to be maybe not as, uh, as, um, I don’t know what other word to use in education, right?

We use the term scaffold it. And so. It might not be as scaffolded as it needs to be and like building on each other. Um, and so with mine, um, for example, the part of the key is the information that you feed it at the beginning. And so the input, um, it’s going to ask some questions about your audience.

It’s going to ask some questions about the goal of the course. We’re going to get, um, some ideas on like, okay, what lessons do you want to include in here? And so we’ll kind of sort of look at that. We’ll look at, um, you know, is there a specific structure that this course needs to take, um, and, and, you know, some other general information.

And so we’ll feed it that information up front and then instead of giving us sort of this, like, bloated, really, really broad information, it is going to, um, Keep it really succinct. So it’s going to give us information that’s specifically targeted to whatever audience we have put in. Oh, and it also, um, is going to ask questions about their, uh, like their level of learning.

So in this specific topic. Are they a beginner, Are they intermediate? Are they advanced? You know, where are they in this? And it’s going to take that into account. Um, and then it’s also going to kind of look at the lessons that we have included in. Okay. Like we, we definitely want to include this and this and this.

It’s going to fill in any gaps that there might be with those lessons. And then it is going to give us within each of those. It is going to make suggestions for, uh, things that might be necessary for students to have access to, uh, in order to implement whatever it is that, you know, they are, uh, trying to, trying to achieve.

Like, for instance, I believe that all educational content should be actionable rather than, like, theoretical. It is always going to, uh, Create lessons that are actionable lessons. So, like, what is the student going to do in this lesson? Like, what are they working towards? And it will help, you know, sort of set that up.

And then from that, what materials, tools, resources are they going to need in order to do that? So it’ll give you kind of a list. Of things to like, maybe create it is going to generate some ideas on. Okay. Here are some possible student obstacles that may come up when they’re trying to do this. And then here’s how you might be able to mitigate that.

So that if we know ahead of time that that’s coming up, we can maybe put in some things in place to avoid it completely. Or if not. We at least know like, okay, here’s like plan B if you know, that does come about. Um, and it’s really just going to look at the course as a whole and sort of place these things in a logical learning order and sort of where it’s scaffolded and they can, uh, they can build on each other.

Chris Badgett: I love that. It’s too bad. This isn’t the Joe Rogan podcast. Cause I feel like we could go for three hours. Um, one more question on the instructional design point. You mentioned scaffolding and structures. Can you give us some examples of like some different thematic structures that could be used? And I think those frameworks kind of help people who have the writer’s block going on how to think about structure.

Erica Nash: Yeah. So one example that I really love to use, um, is in terms of like fear. And so whenever you’re asking your students to do something, um, we kind of, you can kind of look at. Fear on, on a, uh, sort of a spectrum. And I guess it’s not necessarily just fear, but it’s like, what would be the best word? So let’s say that you were asking your students to, uh, let’s say the goal of your course is for students to grow a business.

Um, there are a lot of scary things involved in growing a business. You have to like really get outside of yourself. And so if one of the things that, uh, you know, you have your students do in order to like grow your business, their, their business is to do a live TV interview. You’re not going to ask them to do that the 1st module, because what’s going to happen is they are going to get so scared.

They’re just going to like, peace out. I’m done. Like, we’re not and they’re going to totally disengage because that’s too that’s too scary. That is not something that you can safely ask them to do at that stage of business, because they more than likely, and it obviously it depends on like who this audience is for, but if they’re like new business owners, they have not yet developed their capacity for risk for that yet.

So a way to scaffold that and, and to lead up to that, because you don’t want to necessarily, like, if that is part of the process and framework, you don’t want to. Just remove it completely. You want to build up to it and make it the logical next step. So what you would do first is you would do something like, okay, say in module one, uh, the goal is going to be to set up a, uh, one on one interview with a peer inside of the program.

And you just talk to each other. And then in module two, it’s going to be, um, you know, you are going to pitch yourself. Or a, uh, like a guest blog, uh, article or whatever that you, that you write. And so we’re, we’re increasing the capacity for risk just a little, they’re not showing up on camera, but they are having to talk to someone new and, and pitch their pitch, their whatever topic it is.

Uh, and then, like, let’s say in the next module, it is, uh, you know, they’re, they’re then pitching themselves for a podcast interview, but maybe it’s not 1 that’s on video. Maybe it’s just audio or maybe it’s not live, you know, that then that would be the next step. Sort of a live podcast interview, and then the next step would be very natural, right?

A logical next step could be a live TV interview. So that is a really, really basic sort of breakdown of scaffolding and what that looks like. And so really you just have to think about, you know, uh, engagement as this spectrum and sort of a healthy dose of not fear, but If they’re too afraid, they’re going to disengage.

And once students disengage, it’s so hard to bring them back. Um, but if they’re not motivated to do it, then obviously it’s not going to get done. So there has to be, it has to be a happy middle. Um, and part of the, the way that we reach that happy middle is that we ask them to do things that are outside of their comfort zone, but not so far that it pushes them all the way over into fear and paralysis.

Essentially,

Chris Badgett: I love that. So we’re not just delivering content. We’re delivering confidence and building on it. Exactly.

Erica Nash: Exactly.

Chris Badgett: One more structure question before we move on. And I know this is a, it depends answer question, but, um, you know, what part of the experts curse is like you said, building a giant library of Alexandria with everything, you know, in there, what’s like a good length for a course number of lessons or how do we, how do we know when we’re hitting the wall?

Like, another way to think about it is. Maybe I should create a membership with multiple courses versus this giant 100 lesson course or whatever. Like how do you think about length and depth of an effective course? Yeah.

Erica Nash: No, that is such a great question. And like you said, there is no one answer, maybe a, uh, um, not a better way to look at it, but another way to look at it.

It’s lesson link. So Sometimes I will get into, you know, be like auditing a course and I will be looking at the lessons and they might range anywhere from 20 minutes to 90 minutes. That can be really challenging for, uh, for people who have busy lives. We, we are all, you know, whether it’s. That we’re also, you know, running businesses or maybe multiple businesses or businesses and jobs or businesses and jobs and kids that are doing all of the things, you know, so, so keeping in mind that more than likely your audience is ambitious.

It has a lot of things going on. So keeping in mind that, you know, their time is limited. In general, the sort of best length, and this is research based, I don’t have the information with me, but, uh, the, the sort of average, like, top length of time you want your lessons to be is about nine minutes. Um, and that really just comes down to, you know, like, how long attention span and like, what are we asking students to do?

And, and are we able to, well, this, this goes back to this sort of library of Alexandria thing. Like, is the, if my, if my lesson is 90 minutes long, does it truly need to be 90 minutes long, is the first question. And then the second question is, In that 90 minutes does every single bit of that of relevancy towards whatever objective it is that we’re trying to achieve with a specific lesson.

If the answer is no, then some of that needs to be removed. More than likely, and this is, this is not necessarily true across the board. So, you know, obviously there are lots of factors here, but more than likely, if you’re looking at your video analytics for a 30, 60, 90 minute lesson, engagement is probably dropping off pretty quickly, you know, it probably is a pretty steep downward trend.

And so in terms of, you know, how do you know what your length is? It really comes down to knowing your audience and knowing what data you have available to you. And so kind of looking at, okay, let me go in, let me look at my video analytics. Let me see what the numbers are kind of doing a little bit of a deep dive.

Um, you know, auditing, auditing your own program, auditing your content, auditing your, uh, Uh, your videos, talking to, uh, talking to your members, um, and really kind of asking them the hard questions that might kind of hurt a little bit whenever you get the feedback and being okay with whatever it is that they tell you and being willing to take that information and, uh, and implement it in a way that is going to serve you, but also them, you know, and so.

I can’t say that there is a recommended sort of number of lessons or even length of time because it really does come down to the material itself and, uh, and your audience and what it is that they’re trying to learn if you have a really, really engaged audience and they are huge fans of, like, I want to sit down with this person.

For 90 minutes and I want to learn from them, then that is cool. And if that works like more power to you, it’s just important to know who your audience is and what works for them and what they want out of it. I will say that 1 trend that I am seeing, and I think is probably here to stay is many courses, like, really targeted pretty short.

Like, we’re doing 1 thing. You’re going to come in. You’re going to learn. And it’s probably going to be, you know. Under an hour, under two hours, like get this done really fast and you’ll be on your way, um, creating results. And so that is something that, like, I think is worthwhile to consider, like, you know, what pieces of this can I take and create.

That is not going to be a ton of work for me, but it’s also not going to be a ton of work for my students, but it’s still going to get them the results that they’re looking for.

Chris Badgett: I love that. I saw a great mini course like a year ago where somebody, the whole purpose of the course was to set up your home video, audio, like content studio thing.

And it was very, it was a very specific thing. And I saw how popular the course was. like, yeah, clear problem, clear solution quickly. Okay. Buy exactly these things, set them up in this way. And, and yeah, um, one, you mentioned goal orientation or, uh, get your students taking action, which I’m a big fan of, you know, there’s templates to fill out like spreadsheets and tools you can make.

There’s like assignments, like before the next lesson, go do X, Y, and Z. How do you get your, a course to be more action oriented and outcome driven?

Erica Nash: Oh, that’s a good question. So, um, you know, I think there’s a couple of different ways to go about this. So if I, if we’re like, setting up a brand new course, so, like, let’s kind of look at it on that side.

If we’re setting up a brand new course. We’re going to start with the end goal in mind. So, looking at do what

Chris Badgett: the learning objective? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, what

Erica Nash: is what is the big what is the big goal? Like, by the end of this course, they are going to be able to do. X, Y, Z. And then taking that and working backwards into like, okay, why can’t they do that right now and giving whatever answer that is and then doing that with that one.

Okay. Why can’t they do that right now? And then just working all the way backwards to where they are, and then that’s essentially the goal of each of each module of each lesson. So, you know, if they’re unable, like setting up their, their home video or whatever. Uh, set up, you know, why can’t they do that right now?

Well, they don’t have the equipment. They don’t know what equipment. Why don’t they have the equipment? They don’t know what equipment to buy. Why don’t they know what equipment to buy? Well, there are a ton of options. And so, you know, just like working backwards from there and like, getting really, really, like, each 1 just gets a little more targeted and a little more targeted.

And so then that’s how it starts to be scaffolded naturally. Because you’re building backwards. On the flip side, if it’s a, if it’s a, uh, course that is already like built and it’s already students are already taking it and all of that stuff, you know, kind of, you can, you can work backwards that way, but that’s going to be a lot more disruption and interruption to the current students.

And so, in that case, it would almost be kind of working, like, doing an audit looking backwards. Right? And like, you know, where, where are the. Where are the gaps? But then almost working forward, like, okay, in this first module, this first lesson, you know, what are we asking them to do? If the only thing we’re asking them to do is to listen, is there some, like, does that really need to be there?

And if the answer is yes, then how does it connect to, like, when is the next time we’re asking them to do something? How does that connect to that information? Like, can, can that be combined, you know, in some way? And so really orienting everything to the student task. What are they doing with this lesson?

Because whenever we are just asking them to listen and learn, it’s just not as easy. Um, and I think that’s the most engaging as when it’s like, okay, you’re going to, you’re going to listen and do something along, you know, with me or take notes so that once you finish this, you can go do this thing and doing this thing is going to be necessary to move on to You know, the next piece, um, and 1 of the reasons why that’s so important is because 1, it’s engaging, but 2, it just allows them to to win faster.

It allows them to reach their goals faster. And like, that’s the whole reason we’re making courses. That’s that’s what we want people to to. Get results. We want people to, you know, see their like dreams realized. And so by getting them to take action, that’s great for them. But it’s also great for us too, because that’s where our testimonials come from.

That’s where our results come from. And so we get to share, you know, those wins then and, uh, and create a bigger impact. By marketing, you know that like our course is actually working and here’s the proof

Chris Badgett: very cool Uh, let’s talk about coaching a little bit I call it Like in the instructional design aspect a support mechanism design so You know, you’ve got your content and you’ve got your action steps, but not everybody is one size fits all.

I’ve really come to realize that, you know, when it comes to something like pricing, masterclass, you can learn comedy from Steve Martin for 10 a month, but he’s not going to help you with your jokes or he’s not accessible. Yeah. And you can do like. Private coaching group, coaching calls, you can do email support, text messaging support.

You can create a community. There’s a lot of things you can do to create a support mechanism as part of your offer, but particularly with your background and teaching and helping people when they get stuck or designing your own support mechanisms. What do you find really works there? Cause I think it’s a under focused area when designing this project.

Well, what, what happens when people get stuck or have questions? Like, what do you do? Yeah.

Erica Nash: Yeah. And it’s such an important question to ask because well, and I think since 2020 people are really, have really been seeking support. Like, I don’t think. Not, and again, not to say, like, this is not like a blanket statement, but I think the majority of the time, uh, people don’t want just a court, like, a do it yourself, self paced, like, with no community, no support, no, nothing.

Um, and maybe sometimes feel cheated because they’re like, I can go find that on YouTube or, you know, whatever, like, even though that’s not necessarily. It’s not going to be the same way. Like, you know, there’s a lot of, of nuances there, but I think that’s the way that they feel a lot of times. And so I think it is so important to be asking the question about support and, and how to offer support.

I’m a huge fan of creating and offering whatever type of support though is appropriate for your current life situation. Uh, I don’t think anybody should feel pressured to. Um, you know, every day, all day long, I don’t think anybody should feel pressured to have, you know, any kind of like, you know, 1 on 1 calls if they don’t necessarily have the time or space for that.

I don’t, you know, there’s nothing that I, I feel like should be in a program other than there should be some avenues for support. But what that looks like gets to be up to the course creator. Um, again, I think it’s really, really important to talk to your people and ask them what it is that would be really helpful for them.

But only after you’ve asked yourself, what do I have these for? And what do I really want to do? Like, not everybody is interested. In, uh, having a Facebook group, and that’s fine. That doesn’t necessarily have to be there. You know, are there other other avenues? Is it, is it that it’s the group itself and Is it that it’s on Facebook?

Is it, you know, like, what are the pieces that you’re like? Oh, I don’t really want to do that. And if there are another avenue that maybe fits, whatever it is that you’re looking for. So, really kind of looking at, you know, what is sustainable for me? What am I interested in engaging on? What’s easy. I’m a huge fan of doing what’s easy and like not making it harder than it needs to be.

Um, kind of thinking through, obviously thinking through like budget. Are, is this a paid tool? And do you need this fancy paid tool? Or are you just doing it? Cause that’s the like trendy tool at the moment. Um, there are lots of great tools out there. Paid and unpaid and so, you know, you get to, you get to do whatever it is that fits your, uh, your budget.

Um, and I mean, as far as different types of support, like you said, you know, there are all kinds of different types. Um, I would recommend choosing a few from, um, not necessarily tiers, but like 1, that’s like, you know, how can the community engage with each other? How can the community engage with each other and you and then how can the community engage with you and that last 1?

I don’t believe it has to be like, well, they can schedule 1 on 1 calls with me X amount of time. It doesn’t have to look like that. Like, but if they’re stuck and they need, like. Some a private check in or whatever, you know, can they email you or like, what does that look like? And being very, very clear about the boundaries and, you know, the expectations for that, like, you can email me, but if you email me, here’s what it needs to look like.

Here’s what it needs to sound like. Here’s when you can expect my response and, you know, so on and so forth. And so, um, I hate to say that it also depends on that, but it does

Chris Badgett: a solid advice. Um, let’s talk about the avatar, the ideal customer profile, your people. How did you, I see some people like, well, I have a lot of interests and they can’t, they avatar.

And then they’d need to, like, choose a problem to focus on or a goal. And maybe you’re into multiple things. Um, or I would ask you too, in your transition from teaching, how, what have you learned in, like, getting to know your people, but even before that, like, Taking what to focus on because it starts with the who right?

Like, who am I helping here?

Erica Nash: I am going to be super transparent and saying that that has been a wild ride. It

Chris Badgett: has

Erica Nash: been a journey. It’s probably if I, if I’m being super honest, it is probably just this year that I have felt somewhat settled. Like in who I’m talking to. So I think in the beginning, I mean, even though I had. I already had experience working with people sort of as a designer, as an artist, uh, I was viewing, excuse me, I was viewing this very differently.

And so it was almost like starting over. And I think just like anyone in the beginning, it was like, I was talking to whoever would listen. I mean, it was just like, I, like, I don’t necessarily know exactly who I’m talking to. But if you’re listening, I’m talking to you. And over time, you know, as I honestly, as I just started talking to people. I was figuring out the ones who I just sort of had an easy conversation with.

I think that I think that was probably the, the thing that I was like, oh, okay. Like these, these are my people. And then as I continued to, um, and, and, you know, this is for me as a business person. And I think it’s, I think it’s a similar thing. Um, as a course creator, you know, it’s the, it’s the people who you have a lot in common with.

It’s the people, maybe the person who you used to be, you know. It’s the people that you are able to really help on a different level. Um, but I, I think the key is. Having a lot of conversations and talking about what it is that you’re doing and what you want to do. And I think being curious is a gift. It’s a really important piece of being able to figure out for yourself sort of where. And I say this in quotations, but like where you fit in.

In your own little business world with the knowledge that you can fit in anywhere you want. And you can, you can be anything you want, and you can help anyone you want. And me, what it comes down to is not necessarily. An industry, but a type of person and that’s really where I once I figured that out. I became really, really settled into who I was helping.

And so the things that are important to me are also important to them. You know, I education is important. Oftentimes they put out a lot of educational content, whether or not their coaches. You know, things that are important to me are like, just the fact that we’re able to make an impact by having an online presence and like, they, they want to do some good in the world.

So that’s, you know, that is really important to me. It’s really figuring out these people who are very ambitious. That’s, that’s my ideal client avatar. They are ambitious entrepreneurs who want to change the world. And, you know, whether they have a course right now or not, they probably will down the road.

And so, you know, just really kind of being open to, I don’t know, letting it flow a little bit. I think, I don’t think in the beginning I would have guessed that this is where I would be. but looking back I’m like, oh no, like that, that makes so much sense. Cause it’s who I am as well.

Chris Badgett: I love that your vibe attracts your tribe.

And, if you, you know what you love, lifelong learning, being ambitious. Making the world a better place, being entrepreneurial, like those are the people you want to hang out with.

Erica Nash: Exactly.

Chris Badgett: Sir. Cause you understand then, um, shifting gears to design. I heard this framework once and it just stuck in my brain and never left it.

And this is more for like a software company like we have at Lifter LMS, but, um, there’s the three halves of being the hipster, the hacker and the hustler. So the, the hipster designs, the hacker codes and the hustler markets and sells and that kind of thing. Um, but the hipster piece, the designer, let’s say somebody doesn’t come from a design background.

I see a lot of people get hung up here. Around either,just overdoing design, like on a website for courses and coaching and stuff. Or, you know, kind of hitting a plateau of like, man, they should really professionalize this design. A lot of us, we all think we’re designers because, you know. We, we like certain designs and stuff, but it’s really an art.

Even my, my design is not my strength either. So, like, when I go into Barnes and Noble, sometimes I’m like. I’m going to find that book about design that can just help me be think like a designer better. I just don’t find the section in the store. And, uh, it’s just 1 of those things, but everybody should level up and design.

So how did that happen? You said you’ve been doing it, I think, since you were 13, what are some core concepts in the digital world to create a tight design and, and just level up in that department?

Erica Nash: Oh man, that is such a good question. I think, I think probably above all, well, Above all is simplicity. I think just keeping it simple is going to do wonders or whatever sort of design ideas that anyone has.

You know, a lot of times in trying to stand out, things get really complex and it allows them to stand out. But not necessarily in the way that they had hoped. And and so I think simplicity above all is just. So important and I say that as somebody who loves to design, like, really fun and funky stuff that sometimes gets complex.

But it’s like, we have to look at it in a way of like, okay, I can create this really fun, funky, complex design, but at the base, how can I, how can I make it so simple that it can continue to work in black and white, that it can continue to work, you know, as the most simplified piece of it. And, uh, and so I think that is, is probably like, if I had any advice, it would be that like asking yourself, like, how can I make this more simple?

And then the other piece is watching other designers work. I have, there is so much to be learned. And like I said, like we can learn anything anywhere. Right. And so one of my favorite places is to talk, to watch other designers Like their process videos, they’re super fast. I’m not having to watch like an hour long YouTube, like walk through of their process or anything.

Um, it’s usually something really fast and they do something and I’m like, and like, I’ve been using illustrator for, I don’t know how many years. I’m like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t even know you could do that. You know, like, and so just learning how to. You know, either either tighten your process or, uh, learn how to do something a new way or, um, just visualize differently through the eyes of other people is such a fantastic tool and resource for, um, just for learning design for getting better at design.

Um, it just, you know, constantly improving, which we all, we all have room to constantly improve.

Chris Badgett: Awesome on that on the hacker front. The technologist had, um, you said you’d been building websites for a while. I think how did you, uh, How did you get into that? And what do you recommend for, you know, leveling up in that department?

Erica Nash: I, how did I get into that? I, so, um, so I, my daughter is about to turn 16 and whenever she was three, she was diagnosed with autism. We, so obviously that was a really long time ago, totally different world in terms of like the discussions about autism and, uh, there’s the acceptance, uh, about, you know, people on the spectrum and all of that stuff.

So totally, totally different world. We lived in a really, really small community and the prior. I use this with air quotes with the prior knowledge that this community had, um, about autism was very limited. And so my husband and I were like, okay, like, what can we do to. Help educate our community so that not only are they a little bit more compassionate towards everyone else that they might come in contact with on the spectrum, but that they’ll understand, you know, our daughter, our family, and sort of like, how we’re going to, um, you know, just engage with life from here on out.

And so we, uh, started, um, we, so we started this fundraising campaign. I would design a t shirt and it was like every year in April, which is autism awareness month, I would design a campaign or I would design a t shirt. We would run a campaign. We would raise money, sell the shirts, we’d raise money. And then we would give the money to like, uh, I lived in New Mexico, so it wasn’t necessarily look, we lived in a really, really rural area, but in a sort of local statewide, like, um, uh, foundation.

So we did that over the period of, um. Like, 5 years, and in the middle of that, I had a friend reach out to me and he was like, hey, like, you’re doing some great stuff here. I think you could do even more. Uh, I thought about, like, building a website and I, at that point, I was like, no, like, I’m not I don’t know how to.

I don’t know how to code, you know. And, um, he was like, well, I don’t think, I don’t think you necessarily need to code. I put this like site together for you. Uh, on this was like, after Wix had first come out, he’s like, I put this site together for you on Wix. Um, like, do you want it? And I was like, sure. Like, okay.

And so I took it and just started sort of playing around with it and clicking buttons and trying different things. And, uh, that was the 1st, that was the 1st 1. I sort of took what he started and, like, finished it out. And then from there, it was like, oh, the, the door has opened. The possibilities are endless and we can build any site, any site that we want.

So. I know that it has been frowned upon in the past that the majority of my experience building is on Wix and, uh, and it has served me pretty well. It’s, you know, it served our, our, our goals. Well, um, and so that is that is kind of how that started. But again, I think in terms of, like, you know, figuring out, like, sort of leveling up.

Honestly, I think the biggest piece in leveling up in your web design is finding a community of like minded people who you can learn from. And so, you know, finding a community of people who either are learning the same builder that you are. That you want to level up in or find a good community of people who are leveling up in business, who maybe know a variety of builders, and, you know, if you’re interested in learning, you know, A different builder or, you know, additional, additional skills from there.

So, I think community is probably the most important piece

Chris Badgett: and what just real quick. What is, what have you liked about working in Shannon matters community?

Erica Nash: Oh, my gosh, that that community is just incredible. It’s seriously 1 of the best places on the Internet. And, um, I mean, as far as, like, the best thing, I mean, it’s the people, it’s the people it’s getting to help.

It’s getting to, see real time, I’m overcoming really hard stuff and reaching their goals in spite of. Life throwing all of the things at them that might keep them down. Um, so it, it’s just been, incredible, you know, to like, to work with all of them, learn from all of them, work with and learn from Shannon and, and just continue to be part of a community that truly, really cares about people.

Chris Badgett: That’s awesome. That’s Erica Nash. Go to Erica Nash dot com register for course builder live and thank you for coming on the show. Erica. I really appreciate it. Is there any other ways for people to connect with?

Erica Nash: Yeah, oh, my gosh. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And, always enjoy talking about this kind of stuff.

So I appreciate the opportunity. Um, I, so I am on Instagram, but I’m getting ready to like, wind that down. Um, but right now I have started, you can get on my email list. I’m there a lot. Um, when you can just like sign up on my website, but I am also on. And, I’m starting to share some things there and you can just search my name and it will come up.

Chris Badgett: Awesome.

Erica Nash: Yeah.

Chris Badgett: Thanks for coming on the show, Erica. And thanks for, you know, just being a great example of what I call an education entrepreneur, unicorn spinning all the hats and, helping other people on the journey.

Erica Nash: Thank you so much.

Chris Badgett: And that’s a wrap for this episode of LMS cast. Did you enjoy that episode? Tell your friends and be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next episode. And I’ve got a gift for you over at LifterLMS. com forward slash gift. Go to LifterLMS. com forward slash gift. Keep learning, keep taking action, and I’ll see you in the next episode.

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