Idea Machines
In this conversation, Adam Falk and I talk about run...
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Jul 2 2022 1h 5m
Chapter 1 55 sec
Chapter 2 3 sec
How do you measure success in science?Chapter 3 30 sec
notebooks to Wikimedia foundation. To an astronomical survey of the entire sky. If you're like me, their name is familiar from the acknowledgement part of PBS science shows. Before becoming the president of the Sloan foundation. Adam was the president of Williams college and I high energy physicist focused on elementary particle physics in quantum field theoryChapter 4 27 sec
Ben: Let's start with like a, sort of a really tricky thing that I'm, I'm myself always thinking about is that, you know, it's really hard to like measure success in science, right?Chapter 5
Adam: you?Chapter 6 59 sec
I mean, I think that's a, that's a really good question. And I think it's a mistake to think that there are some magic metrics that if only you are clever enough to come up with build them out of citations and publications you could get some fine tune measure of successChapter 7 25 sec
By 10 years later, when we'd left, there was a journal, there were conferences, there was a community of people who were doing this work, and that was another measure, really tangible measure of success that we kind of entered a field that, that needed some support in order to get goingChapter 8 10 sec
Ben: So I guess one way that I've been thinking about it, it's just, it's almost like counterfactual impact. Right. Whereas like if you hadn't gone in, then it, the, it wouldn't beChapter 9 22 sec
Adam: thereChapter 10 51 sec
to activities that are outside of the research enterprise, that in other fields you can measure impact withChapter 11 7 sec
Thinking about programs on long timescalesChapter 12 26 sec
dataChapter 13 32 sec
Ben: And you mentioned like both. Just like that timescale, right? Like that, that, that 25 years something that I think is just really cool about the Sloan foundation is like how, how long you've been around and sort of like your capability of thinking on those on like a quarter century timescaleChapter 14 8 sec
25 years on the other hand, you know, it's like, you need to be, you can't just sort of like do nothing for 25 yearsChapter 15 50 sec
Adam: So if you had told people back in the nineties that the Sloan digital sky survey was going to still be going after a quarter of a century, they probably never would have funded itChapter 16 32 sec
That's initially a five-year commitment to put about $10 million a yearChapter 17 26 sec
How does the Sloan Foundation decide which programs to do?Chapter 18 3 sec
interesting ways or shut it down and move the resources somewhere else. SoChapter 19 24 sec
Ben: I like that, that you have, you almost have like a hierarchy of timescales, right?Chapter 20 30 sec
Adam: So th that is a terrific question and a hard one to get. Right. And we just came out of a process of thinking very deeply about it. So it's a great time to talk about it. Let's do it. So To frame the large, the problem in the largest sense, if we want to start a new grantmaking program where we are going to allocate about $10 million a year, over a five to 10 year period, which is typical for us, the first thing you realize is that that's not a lot of money on the scale that the federal governmentChapter 21 59 sec
investChapter 22 59 sec
is, is governed large, is organized largely by disciplinesChapter 23 59 sec
physicist, figure out how to do something, like grab the end of a molecule and move it around with a laserChapter 24 18 sec
things, other people aren't going to see rather youChapter 25 34 sec
Sloan's Matter to Life ProgramChapter 26 5 sec
Ben: And so, so actually, could you describe the matter to life program and likeChapter 27 2 sec
and sort of highlight how it fits into all of those buckets?Chapter 28 56 sec
Adam: Absolutely. So the, the, the matter of the life program is an investigation into the principles, particularly the physical principles that matter uses in order to organize itself into living systems. The first distinction to make is this is not a program about how did life evolve on earth, and it's actually meant to be a broader question then how is life on earth organized the idea behind it is that lifeChapter 29 59 sec
know, is a block of ice. That's not alive. And, you know, over here is a frog and that's alive and there's all sorts of intermediate spaces in there. And there are ideas out there that, that go, you know, that are interesting ideas about, for example, at the cellular level how is information can date around a cell?Chapter 30 59 sec
workChapter 31 59 sec
there physics principles that govern the organization of life? And again, are there ways in which the kinds of thinking that informed thermodynamics, which is kind of the study of. Piles of gas and liquid and so forthChapter 32 48 sec
So there's a really interesting question. Kind of chemical. Are there elements of the chemical composition of an atmosphere that would tell you that that life is present there and life in general? Right. I, you know, if, if you, if you're going to look for kind of DNA or something, that might be way too narrow, a thing to kind of look forChapter 33 10 sec
How does the Sloan Foundation think about coordination?Chapter 34 23 sec
and, and Who's going to fund thatChapter 35 35 sec
Ben: And you mentioned that when, when you're looking at programs, you're, you're looking for things that are sort of bigger than like a single pie. And like, how do you, how do you think about sort of the, the different projects, like individual projects within a program? Becoming greater than the sum of their partsChapter 36 1 sec
how to, how to collaborateChapter 37 57 sec
Adam: so one of the wonderful things about being at a foundation is you have a convening power. Yeah. I mean, in part, because you're giving away money, people will, will want to come gather when you say let's come together, you know? And in part, because you just have a way of operating, that's a bit independentChapter 38 59 sec
closed, which was a chemistry of the indoor environment. Where we were funded kind of coming out of our work in the microbiology indoors. It turns out that there's also very interesting chemistry going on indoors which is different from the environmental chemistry that we think about outdoors indoorsChapter 39 31 sec
place around kind of one experiment or one experimental environment and did work then where it could really speak to each otherChapter 40 16 sec
Ben: So, it's like you're playing it a very important role, but then it, it is sort of like a very then bottom up sort of saying like, like almost like put, like saying like, oh, like you people all actually belong together and then they look around and like, oh yeah, yeahChapter 41 7 sec
Adam: we doChapter 42 2 sec
Finding and incentivizing program directorsChapter 43 52 sec
we, we do know some things about the science we're funding, but the real expertise lives with these researchers who do this work every dayChapter 44 6 sec
Ben: Yeah. And just speaking of program directors, how do you, how do you think about, I mean, likeChapter 45 20 sec
you're, you're sort of in charge and so how do you think about directing them and, and sort of how do you think about setting up incentives so that, you know, good work like so that they do good work on their programs and and like how much sort of autonomy do you give them?Chapter 46 38 sec
Adam: Absolutely. So I spent most of my career in universities and colleges. I was my own background is as, as, as a theoretical physicist. And I spent quite a bit of time as a Dean and a college president. And I think the key to being a successful academic administrator is understanding deep in your bones, that the faculty are the heart of the institutionChapter 47 59 sec
leadership role does require a lot of deciding where to allocate the resources and helping figure out and, and figuring out how, and in what ways, and at what times you can be helpful to themChapter 48 34 sec
sometimes, you know, we talk about the ways in which their individual programs are gonna fit together into the largerChapter 49 24 sec
Ben: It's actually sort of to double click on that. And on, on, on hiring program directors, it seems it like, I, I, I would imagine that it is, it is sometimes tough to get really, really good program directors, cause people who would make good program directors could probably have, you know, their pickChapter 50 21 sec
they, they, they do get to be a leader, but to some extent, like they're, they're not directly running a lab, right. Like they're, they, they don't have sort of that direct power. And they're, they're not like making as much money as they could be, you know, working at Google or somethingChapter 51 37 sec
Adam: So that's a great question. I mean, I think there's a certain, you know, P people are meant to be program directors are, are not the, usually the place like the Sloan foundation and different foundations work differentlyChapter 52 27 sec
career where the larger scope that's afforded by doing it by being a program director compensates for the fact that they can't focus in the same way on a particular problem, that, that the way a faculty member does or a researcherChapter 53 31 sec
What should academics know about the funding world and what should the funding world know about academics?Chapter 54 33 sec
broader view or want to move into a, a time in their careers when they can take that broader view about a field or an area that they already feel passionate about. And then who have the disposition that, that, you know, that wanting to help people is deeply rewarding to themChapter 55 25 sec
Ben: And actually and so, so you, you sort of are, are highlighting a lot of parallels between academic administration and, and sort of your role now. I think it. Is there anything that, but at the same time, I think that there are many things that like academics don't understand about sort of like science funding and and, and this, that, that world, and then there's many things that it seems like science funders don't understand aboutChapter 56 18 sec
research and, and you're, you're one of the few people who've sort of done in bothChapter 57 40 sec
Adam: that is, that is great. So I can give you a couple of thingsChapter 58 59 sec
yeah. And that please don't spend time trying to persuade me that Z, that you do really is close enough to X, that we should fund it and get offendedChapter 59 59 sec
little bit of money available that, you know, is an academic, of course, you're trying to makeChapter 60 59 sec
on which one can do a project, right?Chapter 61 6 sec
we typically are a very small part of the funding stream. But during the pandemic, we raised our overhead permanently from the 15% we used to pay to the 20% that we pay now, precisely because we've, we felt it was important to signal our support for the institutionsChapter 62 33 sec
Grants and academics as the primary way research happensChapter 63 18 sec
Ben: to thatChapter 64 28 sec
fund work is through grants and two, is that the, the primary people doing the research are academics and I guess it just, w let's say, w w what is, what's the actual question there it's like, is it like, do you, do you think that that is the best way of doing it?Chapter 65 30 sec
Adam: So there's, there's two answers to that question. The first is just to acknowledge that the Sloan foundation. Probably 50 out of the $90 million a year in grants we make are for researchChapter 66 59 sec
funding people who worked in different spaces, but the kind of work we fund that's really where it's doneChapter 67 24 sec
foundation, we can only fund nonprofits, but that go beyond the kind of institutional space that universities occupy. We're really looking forChapter 68 34 sec
Ben: actually the two to go backChapter 69 10 sec
because there is no funding to do that workChapter 70 48 sec
Adam: I mean, I think that the way to think about it is that you work incrementally. That is if, if once, and I think you're, you're quite right. That is in some sense, we are looking for areas thatChapter 71 59 sec
us why it's super interesting. That's the question you're asking. And that's kind of the question that drives what we talked about before, which is how do you identify a new area, but it's it it's actually to your point, precisely, it's not the area where everybody already isChapter 72 3 sec
area, that's just adjacent to where they are and being responsive to thatChapter 73 19 sec
Ben: No, that's, and that's, it sort of ties back in my mind to. Y you need to do programs on that ten-year timescale, right? Like, you know, it's like the first three years you go a little bit in the next three years, you do a little bit in, and by like the end of the 10 years, then you're actually in, inChapter 74 35 sec
Adam: that newChapter 75 41 sec
the competition for funding is so high that you really need to be able to guarantee success, which doesn't just mean guarantee that your project will work, but that it will, you know, we will contribute in some really meaningful way to moving the field forward, which means that you actually have to have done half the project already before that's, what's called preliminary data playmateChapter 76 17 sec
Ben: I love your point on, on the risk. I, I, I dunno. I, I think that it's, especially with like science, right? It's like, what is it. The risk, right? Like, you're going to discover something. You might discover that, you know, this is like the phenomenon we thought was aChapter 77 7 sec
phenomenon is not really there. RightChapter 78 51 sec
Adam: for an ROI. Can I give you another example? I think it was a really good one. Is, is it in the matter of the life program? We made a grant to a guy named David Baker, the university of Washington and hated him. And so, you know, David BakerChapter 79 59 sec
There's a lot of need there. Everybody wants to live forever. I don't, but everybody else seems to want to, but, so why did, why would, why do we think that we should fund them with all of the money that's in the Institute for protein engineering? Which I think is what it's called. It's because we actually funded him to do some basicChapter 80
project is going to leadChapter 81 14 sec
Ben: Yeah, no, I like that. It's just like more, more speculation. And, and you, you mentioned just. Slight tangent, but you mentioned that, you know, Sloan Sloan operates at a certain skillChapter 82 43 sec
Adam: Yeah, we, we do and we love, we love co-funding. We've, we've done that in many of our programs in the technology program. We funded co-funded with more, more foundation on data science in the, we have a tabletop physics program, which I haven't talked about, but basically measuring, you know, fundamental properties of the electron in a laboratory, the size of this office rather than a laboratoryChapter 83 13 sec
basically out to Tucson, Arizona, and mix them up together around an interesting problem for a few days, and then fund a small, small kind of pilot projects out of thatChapter 84 34 sec
Problems with grants and common grant applicationsChapter 85 10 sec
Ben: Cause it seems like I'm sure you're familiar with, they feel like the common application for college. It just, it seems like, I mean, like one of the, sort of my biggestChapter 86 27 sec
criticisms of grants in general is that, you know, it's like you sort of need to be sending them everywhere. And there's, there's sort of like the, the well-known issue where, you know, like PI has spend some ridiculous proportion of their time writing grants and itChapter 87 31 sec
Adam: I think that actually would be another level of kind of collective collaboration. Like the common app. I think it would actually in this way, I love the ideaChapter 88 40 sec
programChapter 89 18 sec
Addressing the criticism of philanthropy being inefficient because it lacks market mechanismsChapter 90 5 sec
Ben: like standards anywhere, right. Where it's like, oh, of course I'm willing to use the standard. It has to be exactlyChapter 91 9 sec
Adam: We have a standard we're done. If you would just, if you would just recognize that we're better this would be so much simpler. It's just, it's like, it's the way you make a good marriage workChapter 92 31 sec
Ben: And speaking of just foundations and philanthropic funding more generally sort of like one of the criticisms that gets leveled against foundations especially in, in Silicon valley, is that because there's, there's sort of no market mechanism driving the process that, you know, it's like, it, it can be inefficient and all of thatChapter 93 11 sec
Adam: that. Yeah. So let me broaden that criticism and because I think there's something there that's really important. There's the enormous discretion thatChapter 94 59 sec
foundations have is both their greatest strengthChapter 95 59 sec
consistencies, strategic alignment with what is going on at other places in, in ways that serve your, you know, that serve the field a commitment to quality other kinds of commitments that make sure that your work is having high impact as a, as a funderChapter 96 59 sec
that don't have that moneyChapter 97 11 sec
that You know, that, that, that attaches to the science we fund or, or just society in general. And that if we don't see that, you know, we, we think really hard about whether we want to do that grant makingChapter 98 21 sec
Ben: like, I, and I think about things in terms of, of, of like systems engineering. And so it's like, you sort of have these like self-imposed feedback loops. Yes. While it's not, it's not an external market sort of giving you that feedback loop, you still there, you can still sort of like send, like to set up these loops soChapter 99 25 sec
Adam: that, so my colleague, one of the program directors here, my colleague, Evan, Michelson is written entire book onChapter 100 29 sec
sorts of communities you fund into how you would think about doing that in a responsible wayChapter 101
Engaging with the idea that people who create value should be able to capture that valueChapter 102 28 sec
Ben: I will read it recommendation accepted. And I think, I think. Broadly, and this is just something that, I mean, sort of selfishly, but I also think like there's a lot of people who have made a lot of money in, especially in, in technology. And it's interesting because you look at sort of like you could, you could think of Alfred P Sloan and, and Rockefeller and a lot ofChapter 103 32 sec
in Carnegie's as these people who made a lot of money and then started, started these foundationsChapter 104 26 sec
Adam: talked to people about, yeah, I think that's a really interesting observation. I think that, and I think it's something we think about a lot is the, the different, I think about a lot is the differences in the ways that today's, you know, newly wealthy, you know, business people, particularly the tech entrepreneurs think about philanthropyChapter 105 59 sec
P Sloan, he he basically built general motors, right? He was a brilliant young engineer who manufactured the best ball bearings in the country for about 20 years, which turned out at the nascent automobile industry. As you can imagine, reducing friction is incredibly important and ball bearings were incredibly important and he made the best ball-bearings rightChapter 106 59 sec
Pontiac and you have old's and you have Cadillac and GMC and all, you know, and this was, he was relentlessly kind of practical and institutional thinker, right across a big institutionChapter 107 59 sec
don't worry about the collateral damage or frankly, much about the people that are, that are kind of maybe the collateral damage. You just get to scale and follow your kind of single minded vision and people can build some amazing institutions that way. I mean, I think it's, it's been very successful, right?Chapter 108 59 sec
fires institutions to fund that research, to host that research that people have long, you know, that the best research is actually done by people who were engaged in various parts of very long decades, careers doing a certain thing that it takes a long time to build expertise and Eva, as brilliant as you are, you need people around you with expertise and experienceChapter 109 12 sec
differences between universities and which are very important institutions in all of this and star tech startups. And they really are different sorts of institutions. So I think that's a challenge for us in this sector right nowChapter 110 12 sec
Ben: What I liked. To do is tease apart why, why is this different? Like, why can't you just put in more nights to your research and like come up with the, come out with the, like the brilliant insight fasterChapter 111 33 sec
Adam: Yeah. I mean, these people who are already working pretty hard, I would say, I mean, you, you know, you're of course, you know, this really well, there are different, I mean, science has, you know, has different parts of science that work on different sorts of problems and, you know, there's, there are problemsChapter 112 46 sec
the, the private laboratories like bell labs and Xerox labs, and so forth, played a really important role in doing basic research that was really inspired by a particular applicationChapter 113 12 sec
Ben: and sort of speaking of, of institutions. The, like, as I know, you're aware, there's, there's sort of like this, this like weird Cambridge and explosion of people trying stuffChapter 114 16 sec
to just your, your thoughts on that, I'm, I'm interested particularly if you see, if you see gaps. That people aren't trying to fill, but like, you, you, you think that you would sort of like want to, to shine spotlights on just from, from, from your, your overview positionChapter 115 42 sec
Adam: I mean, that's a great questionChapter 116 59 sec
that you know, some of the new organizations, many of them are kind of set up as a little bit hybrid organizations that they do some funding. And, but they also want to do some advocacyChapter 117 59 sec
a little bit of a language that you start to hear that kind of runs down, that it kind of takes a perspective that everything is broken in the way we're doing things nowChapter 118 59 sec
miss a great opportunity to do really great things, right? I mean, the, you know, the, what Carnegie and Rockefeller left behind were great institutions that have persisted long after Carnegie and Rockefeller. We're long gone and informs that Carnegie and Rockefeller could never have imaginedChapter 119 22 sec
helpful corrective to much of the narrative that I see thereChapter 120 29 sec
Ben: I think that is a perfect place to stop