How B2B Sales and Marketing Can Generate Better Results

In the fast-paced world of B2B, sales and marketing do not need to be rivals. When they’re able to collaborate, they become a powerful customer-focused force that creates unparalleled value and a seamless experience. How can both sides make this happen and create a positive impact on their customers?

That’s why we’ve decided to invite renowned sales leader Hamish Knox (CEO, Sandler Calgary) to talk about how B2B sales and marketing can work together to generate better results. During our conversation, Hamish explained why this conflict persists and what pitfalls to avoid. He also provided actionable tips on how marketing can proactively work with sales and how to get them involved in upcoming marketing initiatives that will resonate with customers.

https://youtu.be/qp_LJ_rZ82U

Topics discussed in episode

[1:52] The main reasons for conflict between sales and marketing: Mismatched goals, values, beliefs, and incentives
[5:42] What marketers should know about sales
[8:20] The importance of collaboration between sales and marketing
[10:45] Practical steps to improve collaboration
- Don’t say you will ‘try’ something
- When you arrange meetings, provide the agenda, the purpose of the meeting, and expected outcomes[15:15] Common pitfalls that B2B marketers should avoid when working with sales:
[23:20] Hamish provides examples of successful collaboration
[30:58] Actionable tips for B2B marketers:
- Restate, don’t paraphrase
- Bring a draft
- Create clarity at every stage
- Seek engagement by ending with a question
- Leave your ego at the door

Companies and links mentioned

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Christian Klepp, Hamish Knox

Christian Klepp 00:01

Welcome to this episode of B2B Marketers on a Mission, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’m talking to Hamish Knox. He supports entrepreneurs to sustainably scale their sales so they can eventually exit for their number instead of the number they’re told to take. He’s one of the top franchisees in the Global Sandler Network, has been a four times must-see keynote speaker at the Sandler Summit, and holds the recognition of being the first franchisee in Sandler’s history to publish more than one book. Why am I talking to a salesperson when this is a show for B2B marketers? Well, tune in to find out more about how sales and marketing can create incredible results together. All right, Mr. Hamish Knox, welcome to the show.

Hamish Knox 00:46

Thanks for having me, Christian

Christian Klepp 00:47

Man, I feel like we’ve known each other 1000 years. I really have to say, it was, it was a real pleasure to be on your podcast. And you know, I have to, of course, reciprocate in kind and welcome you to this show. I was thinking about this earlier today, and folks are going to be like, Well, hang on a second here. This is a podcast for B2B marketers. What the heck is the sales guy doing here? And to which I say, and therein lies the problem. And this is exactly why I’ve asked you to come on the show.

Hamish Knox 01:21

Perfect.

Christian Klepp 01:22

There is so much to be said, and there are so many opportunities to be had when sales and marketing work together. So if we’re gonna dive right into it, the topic for today’s discussion is how B to B sales and marketing can collaborate and generate better results. And I’m going to kick off this conversation with this question, and yeah, I bet you’ve never heard this one before. Why do you think this ancient conflict between sales and marketing persists?

Hamish Knox 01:52

I appreciate you asking, and ultimately, I coach my clients that all conflict is because of a mismatch of goals, values, beliefs, or here’s the kicker, incentives and marketing and sales from the dawn of time have been incentivized differently, and so ultimately, we have one group who is doing the things that they believe are right because it’s going to get them to their incentive plan, and the other group who is doing the things that they believe are right to get them to their incentive plan. Unfortunately, the incentive plans are mismatched, because ultimately, it’s not necessarily about sustainably driving company growth or supporting the end user. It’s ultimately about this group gets more, and this group gets more, except if one of them is going to get more, the other one feels like they have to get less. And that’s really not the case.

Christian Klepp 02:50

Absolutely, absolutely. Do you also think, I suppose it also goes back to the way that the organization is structured and the company culture. Because, I mean, I’ve worked with a lot of B to B industries, traditional B to B industries, so you’re talking heavy machinery, steel, chemicals, etc., and they were just programmed to think that marketing was a support function. And they’ll just, you know, if they need something, they’ll, they’ll ring the bell or pick up the red phone or whatever, whatever other analogy you want to use.

Hamish Knox 03:25

Yeah, I’ve heard, I’ll call my girl who does that and that, I heard that recently. So, you know, yes, like, hey, we have a girl who does our brochures. Like, okay, well, she is a wonderful human being who provides very great value to your organization. You’re just minimizing and diminishing her contribution. Fine. So yeah, it’s been seen as not the real work, right? Like marketing has been seen as, oh, well, you guys just like, make brochures and do trade shows and you have a lot of fun. And by the way, sales gets the same thing, right? Sales is like, Oh, you guys don’t do real work. You just take people out for lunch and go golfing. And there isn’t this understanding that until someone sells something, nothing else happens. However, marketing is the thing that gets us to Hello, so until we get to Hello, we don’t even have the chance to sell something. And I just had a client, we hosted a sales leadership conference in Calgary at the start of October, and one of our now former clients shared that they had sold their business in four years, instead of six years, at a 1200% ROI to what they paid for it, and what they showed on their slide was, before they started working with us, they were operations, finance, sales. And where they ended up was sales, finance, operations. And to me, sales and marketing are part of that client facing right? So some of the listeners are going to get offended because they didn’t hear marketing in there. What I want to share with you is, I look at that as client facing. So are you in some way touching a client, whether it’s before they even know that they want to work with you, to all the way after they’ve been a client for decades, client facing is what sales and marketing is.

Christian Klepp 05:17

Absolutely, absolutely and just for the benefit of the listeners, you know, I didn’t invite Hamish on the show to like, you know, have a go at marketing people, or even if, or even if he does have a go at marketing people. Perhaps there is a reason, right? But, um, I’m gonna move us on to the next question, and I think it’s one that really resonates with you. Um, what do you wish more marketers knew about sales?

Hamish Knox 05:43

That it’s really, really hard. Sales is really, really hard. Sales people, especially frontline sellers, get rejected every single day. And if we, if we break this up into like the BDR, SDR world, those BDRs and SDRs are hearing more no’s in a day than most individuals hear in a year, because that’s their world. They’re just out there trying to find that one person who says yes to an initial conversation. And so for marketers to understand that that sellers and all the other direct client contact individuals. They want support. They want their lives to be easier, and they often feel unsupported. And I will gently poke at marketers today, as I’ve already said, marketing is an incredibly important part of an organization, and sometimes they get up in their head about certain things and are not necessarily supportive of sales, just as much as sales is not supportive of marketing. So today’s episode will be fair and balanced.

Christian Klepp 06:54

Absolutely, absolutely. I’ll take your word for it. I mean, you know, to be fair, and you know, we’ve had a conversation about this. I didn’t start out as a marketer my career.

Hamish Knox 07:03

Right.

Christian Klepp 07:04

I actually started out as a salesperson, and I think my first job, if I remember correctly, and I’m gonna age myself a little bit here, c’est la vie. I started out as a sales guy, like doing cold calling for Motorola walkie talkies.

Hamish Knox 07:22

Wow.

Christian Klepp 07:22

Do you remember those old gals?

Hamish Knox 07:23

Oh, yeah.

Christian Klepp 07:26

And, you know, to your point about like, getting rejected. I mean, we had a call about 100 companies a day, and I would say 96 or 97 of them either hung up or said no or don’t ever call me again. Yep, they might have said a few other used another, a few other choice words after that, but I will not repeat those here, but you get the gist. And maybe there was one or two that said, okay, oh, it’s a free trial, sure. So you kind of can’t blame salespeople for the way that they conduct themselves, because, as you said, they have to have this a bit of a thicker skin. If I can say that, like, because just rejection is part of the game. So, and going back to a previous point, why do you believe it’s so important for sales and marketing to work together? Like, what is this magic that they can create if they actually, like, get all their ducks in a row?

Hamish Knox 08:20

Because ultimately, they create velocity in the revenue growth of the organization. Because if sales and marketing are aligned, it’s to use a tired analogy. It’s like rowing in opposite directions, and marketing and sales, and by the way, they think they’re rowing in the same direction, but they’ve got a wall between them. So like, Well, why are we spinning? Well, I’m rowing left. Well, I’m rowing left too, except that, because we’re on opposite sides of the boat, the two left spin us in a circle. So they, if we, if we align marketing and sales, now we have this rocket that can very easily bring in the right type of buyer to our frontline salespeople again, whether they’re BDRs or whether they’re that more traditional prospector qualified closer, and then that person is already set up for a successful conversation, because the buyer is coming in, knowing who the company is, knowing the types of challenges they’re solving, and it becomes a much warmer conversation for that first sales contact and to that point when marketing sends over a lead to sales, sales actually believes that it’s worth their time to call because that’s something that I’ve heard over and over. You know, in my previous roles, as well as working with my clients, it’s like, yeah, they send me a marketing qualified lead, which is essentially a single name that’s probably made up and a Gmail address. As like, how am I… I sell multimillion dollar pieces of industrial equipment. What am I supposed to do with this? So when we align everything, that goes away, everybody gets to be more effective and more efficient.

Christian Klepp 10:16

Absolutely, absolutely. And you did touch on it, like a few minutes ago. But how do you, what do you think marketers can do differently, because I get that, because I was on the receiving end of that, like getting the wrong leads, yeah right, or getting what marketing considered a qualified leads, and then sales looks at it and says, Well, no, in fact, it’s not.

Hamish Knox 10:37

Yeah.

Christian Klepp 10:38

Right. So how can we, how can both sides close the gap there? How can, how can we get this on the right track?

Hamish Knox 10:45

That is an amazing question. So it starts again, fair and balanced here. So number one, sales has to be willing to share. And this is a challenge that I see sales leaders in particular. They’re like, well, you’re marketing, we’re sales, we’re the, you know, we’re the ones who make things happen. You know, stop bothering us. Just go make some more brochures. And that is a defeating attitude. So if we look at the top end of the of each group, you know, the sales leader and the marketing leader, the sales leader has to look at the marketing leader as a peer and as someone who is going to support their team in getting to their goals faster. So sales, be open minded to working with marketing. Marketing, I’m going to steal from you a little bit, which is marketing. Go to the field. Go on sales calls, double Jack, which is a, you know, if you’re listening on the calls or or zoom along is another, is another new phrase, right? And by the way, for the marketers who are listening, and they got a little tight when they heard go on on sales calls, it doesn’t mean you have to participate. The salesperson says, Hey, this is Hamish. He’s my colleague. He just joined the firm. He’s sitting in to get a sense of what our clients are, and then he’s going to take notes. And then, by the way, the buyer is going to be like, awesome. Hamish goes in the corner, he’s going to take notes, and I don’t have to worry about him. Now, the key part of this is Hamish has to keep his mouth shut the whole time, right? He cannot be… The frame cannot be: Hamish is here to take notes and observe, and then all of a sudden, Hamish like, Well, what about this? Because now we’ve destroyed the credibility and the rapport that we’ve built with our client. So go on sales calls, which is something Christian and I talked about on my podcast. The other, the other thing is, really genuinely listen, not only to sales but also to the clients. Because a complaint that I had with a marketing department that when I was in the corporate world is they would probably be incentivized to really push a strategic product. This is a strategic product, by the way. It’s strategic for this quarter. It’s going to change in 90 days. But this is a strategic product. You’ve got to go talk to your clients about this strategic product. And in one case, I was selling investor relations services, and I said to our head of marketing, most of my clients are junior listed mining companies where 70 to 80% of the stock is held by the CEO and the CFO who go have their annual general meeting at a bar. If I go in and start talking to them about this strategic product, I’m going to kill my credibility. I’m going to be a pushy sales person so I get that you want me to talk about this, my clients are going to destroy me if I try to do this. So when marketers are actually going out and gathering this data, actually going back and really saying, Oh, this is the real data, not coming up with a hypothesis, and finding data that fits the hypothesis, having a hypothesis, and being willing to adjust the hypothesis based on the real data that’s received, because then that’s going to create much more effective content to attract more of the right buyers.

Christian Klepp 14:10

Amen. Amen. And you know, something that you said earlier really resonated with me, because, I guess you can use the police drama analogy right? Where you’ve got, you’ve got the suspect in the interrogation room, and there’s folks on the other side of the mirror, yeah, watching the interrogation as it’s unfolding. And I kind of imagine myself as the marker being the guys that are in that other room going, going, That guy’s lying right? Like he totally did it, right? Totally, yeah, they shouldn’t be the one bursting into the interrogation room. You did it. You’re guilty.

Hamish Knox 14:50

Exactly, exactly.

Christian Klepp 14:51

That’s the detective’s job or the interrogator’s job, right? In this context, the interrogator is the sales guy, right? But, um. You know, absolutely, absolutely. Um, just on that vein of, what are some of those pitfalls? And you spoke about a few of them already, but what are some of these pitfalls that marketers should avoid? Um, when working with sales?

Hamish Knox 15:15

Number one is delivering completed content. So my favorite word when I’m working with a marketing group is the word draft, because draft means there’s still room for adjustments. Now, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, both people have to be open to that adjustment, right? So I have worked with individuals, both in sales and in marketing, who, to use an Anthony Bourdain term, were artists. And so when they delivered something, whether it was a PowerPoint deck for a presentation or whether it was a brochure for a trade show, it was their precious object that shall never be in any way criticized like that’s not the real world. Everything is a draft. Everything is a work in progress. So for marketers and for sellers, I love using the word draft because there’s some there’s some opportunity. And even if we have to publish it because we got to get it ready for the trade show or we’ve got it ready to launch for our digital campaign, it’s still a draft. It can still be edited and still be adjusted. So using that word draft, like, Hey, we’ve drafted this looking for some insights, and then again, for the sales team to give genuine insights about because for the sales team to think marketing is here to support me. They are asking for my help, right? It’s the help me, help you scenario, so I’m going to make the time to give them real, genuine notes that are actually going to enhance whatever they’ve drafted, because ultimately, we’re both working towards the same mountain top, which is grow revenue for the company.

Christian Klepp 16:53

Absolutely, absolutely. There might have been one other one that you told me about in the previous conversation, that, let’s, let’s just say, rub you the wrong way. Is when, when marketers say we’re going to try something.

Hamish Knox 17:08

Yeah, well, that’s the that’s also the quickest way to kill any initiative with anybody, right? Is the the word try in a corporate context, uh, says this too shall pass. So when I and again, this is more, this is corporate world, and I would have the marketing team send out an email, Hey, we’re going to try this out. And the sales team was like, okay, so this is going to put us through a bunch of nonsense that we’re going to have to comply with for, hopefully 30 days, maybe 90 days, we just got to ride the storm out, and we’ll make sure that it’s not damaging to our relationships with our clients. It doesn’t hurt our brand in our local market. Because again, this is the other challenge as marketers, if you’re a national or an international organization, and marketers have gotten way better at this, especially in the in the 2000s is really hyper localizing things. So I don’t want the audience to think I’m absolutely beaten up on marketers. You’ve, you’ve really, you do amazing things, and you can now measure things, right? And that’s where sales oftentimes gets kicked in the teeth by management. There’s like, Well, hey, look at your friends over in marketing. They’ve got data all over the place. What about you? So for marketers, when you’re rolling out something, yes, it could be a short term thing, I get it. You’re doing a trial, even the word trial is better than the word try, because it doesn’t matter what we say. It matters what the other person hears. And when somebody says, We’re gonna try this ad campaign, sales rolls their eyes. Whereas, if we say, Hey, we’re doing an ad campaign trial, and here’s the outcome that we’re looking for, sales goes, Oh, okay, yeah, clarity, right, we understand this is a trial, and you’ve told us what the outcome is. It’s not a bunch of wishing and hoping that things are going to magically get better. You’ve got some real data behind here, by the way, that’s something that sales could learn from marketing on most occasions, is to have real defined outcomes and real clarity, as opposed to, I don’t know we’re going to talk to some people and hope to sell stuff.

Christian Klepp 19:19

Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. The other thing I do remember from my experience, also being in corporate, what salespeople really hated was if we used to call meetings and we don’t say, Hey, listen. And we got better at it over time, obviously, but like, call meetings and not defining what the purpose of the meeting is and what the expected outcome is. By expected outcome. Do we want feedback? Do we want validation? Do we want collaboration? Who’s responsible for said meeting? Right? Because somebody has to be responsible, like who called it right?

Hamish Knox 20:01

Overarching in any role. High performers do not want to be in meetings. Now high performer, operations, marketing, finance, sales, like pick a department. The true high performers want to be doing the thing that they do really well, whether that’s supporting clients, finding new clients, developing new content to bring in ideal leads, delivering, whatever it might be, they don’t want to be in the meetings. And you nailed it. Christian of whenever someone looks at a at a meeting invite and says, I don’t know why I should care. I don’t know why it’s set for an hour, or whatever it might be because, and by the way, it’s probably because it was the default. And again, What’s the purpose? Like? What? Why? What am I expected to be doing here? Ultimately, if they’re going to get forced to the meeting, and then it’s not going to go well, because they’re sitting there. To you, you know, a bit of a terrible word, but they’re sitting there like a hostage, and they’re not present. They’re thinking about all the things that they could be doing that they feel would be a better use of their time than this meeting, which, by the way, might be really critical to the success of their role. However, the frame was so terrible that they’re not even willing to engage.

Christian Klepp 21:20

Absolutely, absolutely. Framing it, packaging it, and using the right approach, yeah, right, all of those things together.

Hamish Knox 21:27

Exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah. Sandler. Sandler. Part of the Sandler system is something called an upfront contract, and it literally is The Purpose. How much time? What are the agendas? And what are the expected outcomes? All of this is done in advance, so that everybody who goes in knows. And then, by the way, because we have those people in meetings who sometimes want to pontificate for lack of a better word, or maybe not stick to the agenda, that’s where the person who’s leading the meeting, who’s accountable for the agenda, can say, Hamish, I appreciate your insights on why your customers are very different and why this approach isn’t going to work. That’s actually not the purpose. What the agenda item we’re on is this, do you have something to say about that? By the way, the answer is usually no, I just want to hear myself talk. By having that frame up front. It’s way easier to have a much more productive meeting in significantly less time.

Christian Klepp 22:26

Absolutely, absolutely. We used to call those guys the meeting hijackers.

Hamish Knox 22:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Christian Klepp 22:32

And you have to have that guy, for lack of a better description, I’m just going to call that person the moderator. The moderator has to step in and say Christian or Hamish. Thank you for your contribution. Thanks for the thanks for, you know, sharing your opinion. But let’s stick to the matter at hand. If you don’t mind, we can certainly go back to what you were discussing in a couple of minutes. And of course, the trick is you never go back to that topic right?

Hamish Knox 22:58

Exactly, exactly. We’ll circle back to that later, which is never.

Christian Klepp 23:02

Which is never, yeah, we’ll talk about after the coffee break. Yeah. Provide an example, ideally, from your own experience, of course, of how sales and marketing can work well together.

Hamish Knox 23:18

So and I was gently touching on it a little bit earlier. Of in my organization, my marketing group is actually empowered to say, Hey, that’s a great idea, and it’s not going to work. So we have an agreement between us that when we want to raise our revenue, that’s the ultimate goal. We’re going to collaborate on this. So and each group has the right to say, I don’t think that’s going to work. What about this? And so when we have those conversations about, hey, let’s do an event, or hey, let’s do a campaign, or hey, let’s do this trade show, or this sponsorship. Both parties are equal in the conversation around, why should we do this? What’s the payoff? Is it going to work? If so, how and how are we going to execute it, pre, during and post? Because with that framing, everybody feels like their contribution matters, as opposed to sales coming in and saying, Hey, we’re doing a trade show next week or in next quarter. Figure it out, and marketing is like, awesome dude like, that wasn’t in the budget. That wasn’t in the planning. We were already on this, etc., etc. I have another client where the marketing group ended up going on some sales calls like I mentioned earlier, and it was that frame of Hamish is here. He’s just observing. He’s brand new to the company. He wants to get a sense of what our clients are like. And then marketing came back and said, Okay, here’s what we’ve heard from you sales people. And they didn’t literally say, you sales people, that’s aggressive. And here’s what we’ve observed in the field, and what we’re noticing is these disconnects. What we need help on is resolving the disconnects. So it was a collaborative conversation, not around you guys are lying to us, which is what sales think marketing is going to do if they actually get to go talk to real clients. Instead, it was I’m confused, and I tell all of the clients I work with that confused is a great place to be, because it means there’s a disconnect between what somebody said and what is actually observed. And so that was another great way of aligning marketing and sales, because marketing could go out and actually get real data and come back and say to sales, I need your help. And then from there, they were much better able to develop real tools that spoke to problems the buyer was experiencing, as opposed to features and benefits. We’ve been in business 25 years and won all these awards that no one cares about. And then again, when sales got a lead, it was actually based around a problem that my client solved, as opposed to, I don’t know, I just wanted to download a free report on the five things I should know about fill in the blank.

Christian Klepp 26:23

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it’s… you touched on a lot of points that really resonated with me in the past couple minutes. And I think a lot of it is really just also both sides, regardless of whether it’s marketing or sales, just leave your ego at the door, right? This shouldn’t be seen as a personal attack on your integrity or on your level of professionalism. It should be seen or viewed from that perspective that okay, continuous improvement or trying to get this boat rowing in the same direction, right? But that brings me to a follow up question, and it’s well, how do you maneuver because what I’ve been hearing you say in the past couple of minutes is all very constructive. That said you have a lot of internal politics to maneuver there. How do you deal with that?

Hamish Knox 27:22

So one thing that we or one person we haven’t talked about, is the is the CEO or the owner of the organization. And so ultimately, sales and marketing, yes, all this wonderful collaboration, all these things, and then, yeah, well, what about I’m trying to get ahead. I’m trying to advance my career. And, you know, in big, big corporate that’s that’s a reality. And so ultimately, it is on the leader of leaders to set the culture. And so a corporate culture is the behavior that is approved implicitly or explicitly. That’s it. There’s no other definition. You can go do all your off sites and planning sessions and whatever your corporate culture is the behavior that is approved implicitly or explicitly, so if we have a leader of leaders who is approving the behavior implicitly or explicitly of politicking and backstabbing and things like that, and we have someone in the in the marketing role who really genuinely wants to make their work with sales a collaboration, and they genuinely want to make it rowing in the same direction. Yet they have a sales leader who is playing politics, and they have their leader of leaders who is allowing it that is an awkward conversation that the marketing leader will need to have with their leader of leaders and say things like, here’s what I’m observing. You know, my sense is I’m struggling with and so then again, it’s not the finger pointing. It’s genuinely looking for a solution, which, at that leader of leaders level, that’s what they’re looking for. They’re not looking for. You know, wow, they stole my lunch box. They’re looking for. This is what I’m observing. This is how I’m feeling. And here’s what I’m thinking about, a solution. How do you feel about that? And then letting the leader of leaders say, suck it up and deal with it, which is one option, or the scales have fallen off. My eyes I can see again. Oh, thank you for bringing this to my attention. Another option, by the way, both are probably not going to happen. And and having that clarity right, creating that clarity around desired future state. And as I’ve coached plenty of clients in big corporate at some point, you have to ask yourself, is it worth the brain damage? Because you have to go have the conversation. This is not permission to just run away. Right? Yeah. At some point, if you do everything that’s under your control and have stated clearly your needs and in your desires to create success for the organization, and you’re not getting supported, you have to ask yourself, is it worth the brain damage. For some people, the answer is legitimately Yes. And for other people, the answer is, no, I’d rather go find an organization that truly wants to have a collaborative, client facing organization.

Christian Klepp 30:29

Absolutely, absolutely. So it’s got to be the right fit, right at some point. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, my friend, we get to the point in the conversation where we talk about actionable tips, and, man, you’ve given us plenty. And I guess the way that I’m gonna frame this question Hamish is, if there is a B to B marketer out there who is facing this issue that we’ve been talking about right now, and there are three to five things that you want them to walk away with, what would they be?

Hamish Knox 30:58

So the first one is, when you are listening to a seller or a member of the sales organization, sales leader, front line doesn’t matter. Always restate, never paraphrase. So we’re taught in conflict resolution to paraphrase. You know, Christian what I think I heard you say is, did I get that right? And I mentioned earlier, it doesn’t matter what we say, it matters what the other person hears. And in a conflict situation, and as we’ve already identified, it’s a conflict situation, typically, when we paraphrase, the other person doesn’t actually hear us genuinely wanting to engage. What they hear is you’re not listening. What they think is you’re not listening to me. So we have to restate exactly what they said. So Christian, when you tell me that all the leads for marketing suck, what do you mean by that? That’s a restatement. And by the way, I’m using my nurturing voice right now, audience, if you’re listening. So I’m going to be a little bit gentler in a real conversation. I’m saying it for a fact. So number one, restate, don’t paraphrase. Number two, bring a draft. The phrase of draft is great. Number three, create clarity at every stage “I’m asking you because”, “the goal I have is”, “we’re doing this for this period of time with this expected outcome” that creates clarity, that raises our credibility. Number four, seek engagement by ending sentences with question marks. The minute we end the sentence with a period. We’re doing this sales is like, awesome. We’re going to fight you. Now. They’re not going to say it, but their behavior is going to change, right? We’re doing this with this expected outcome. What else would you like to know? Or what do you think we might have missed? Or something like that. Again, that’s a draft, right? There’s no perfect plan. And the last one is, and I’m going to steal it from you, leave your ego at the door. Ultimately, this is about getting to the same mountain top, which is revenue growth for the organization. The minute that we decide that we are more important than that mountain top, things are going to go sideways.

Christian Klepp 33:23

Amen, wow. I’ve been, I’ve been, um, like, taking notes furiously here, but let me just quickly recap those, because I think it’s worth repeating, right? So listening to the seller, restate, don’t paraphrase, right. Bring a draft that was number two. Number three is create clarity at every stage. Number four, I thought this one was really awesome. Seek engagement by ending with a question, right, not a period. And number five, yes, leave your ego out the door. And that applies to marketing, when we interact with creative people as well.

Hamish Knox 34:02

Amen, yes, absolutely.

Christian Klepp 34:05

Fantastic, fantastic. I’m going to ask you to get up on a higher soapbox than you’ve already been on. But like, um, just on this, on this very topic, what is a status quo that you passionately disagree with. And why.

Hamish Knox 34:21

Well, so, and it ties across marketing and sales, and it’s that relationships are the key to growing a business. And it’s complete nonsense. There’s a Harvard study several years ago it turned into the book The Challenger sale, that showed that sellers who tried to base things on relationships were the single worst performers. And in marketing, it’s like, well, we have great relationships with our vendors or with our suppliers or with our creatives. And ultimately, I bet, if you went and asked. Them. You know, how do you feel about work with XYZ CO., you’re probably going to get some information that you didn’t want to have. So what I share is that rapport beats relationship, and the root of the word rapport is the word Trust. So trust is the reason why we have the societies that we have today, because we decided that we would trust each other instead of bashing each other in the head with rocks and sticks so I would rather focus on creating great rapport with my vendors, my suppliers, my colleagues in the sales department, the marketing department, the finance department, as opposed to attempting to go through the long slog of building a relationship. A relationship is trust over time. So if we focus on the relationship, we’re probably never going to get there, and we’re probably going to seem as pushy and aggressive and off putting. If I focus on building trust with my colleague in the sales department and by delivering consistently, by listening, by taking what they say and actually doing something with it, that is something that is going to accelerate us to that growth mountain top, as opposed to, well, I’ve got a great relationship,

Christian Klepp 34:26

And this, my friend, is exactly the reason why I asked this question, right? Because a lot of folks that I’ve brought on to the show, and, you know, interviewed and what have you, would argue that it’s everything is relationship based, right? And it’s all about building relationship. And that’s, you know, to you, to your point, that’s what we’ve been taught to believe over time, right? That it’s, it’s all about building relationships, and that kind of intermingles somehow with trust and credibility. Yeah, right. And so thank you for bringing that fresh perspective on that. That is definitely something I’m gonna ponder on. I mean, like, you know, after your explanation, it 100% makes sense. But I wasn’t that I was in that camp, right? That said, yeah, no relationships first, right?

Hamish Knox 36:55

Absolutely. And it’s, it’s something that, again, it’s, and also it feels easy, right? Oh, I’m building a relationship with Christian. Hey, Christian, kind of curious. Who’s your creative person working on this? I don’t know. It’s some guy who’s doing stuff for me, right? Like there’s no… but it’s the rapport that trust over time and relationships are crucial. I should, I should clarify to the audience, relationships are crucial. As I said, if we focus on the just, oh, I got to build a relationship. We’re actually not creating trust, which reduces the potential of a relationship.

Christian Klepp 37:27

Absolutely. Okay, two more questions. I’ll let you go. Okay, so bonus question, all right, rumor. Rumor has it that you grew up in BC, or you lived in BC for a bit.

Hamish Knox 37:39

I did grow up in BC. Yes.

Christian Klepp 37:42

Oh, I’m sorry. For the benefit of the audience. BC is British Columbia. So you know, for those that are not very familiar with that part of the world where you’ve spent, you know, quite a number of years of your life, what’s a fun fact about BC that not many people know?

Hamish Knox 37:59

So a fun fact about BC, and actually the town I went to high school in, because I grew up in a village of 500 people, so there was no high school. Sicamous, British Columbia is the houseboat capital of Canada. It used to be the houseboat capital of the world that is now Lake Tahoe in the United States. However, 80% of the houseboats that are on Lake Tahoe were actually built in Sicamous and shipped down there. So, yes, so little, you know, 3500 people year round, goes to 12,000 in the summer for houseboat related reasons. It’s a world leader in the production of houseboats.

Christian Klepp 38:39

Wow! See, I didn’t even know that. But then again, I do live in Ontario, so, you know, like…

Hamish Knox 38:46

You have cottages instead.

Christian Klepp 38:47

We do, we do, yeah, not many houseboats in this part, but Hamish. Thank you so much. I mean, like, as expected, this conversation was dynamite, and I certainly hope that there are B to B marketers out there that are going to be listening to this show, listening to this episode, and hopefully taking as many notes as I have. So thank you again for coming on the show and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. Please quick introduction to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you.

Hamish Knox 39:15

Yeah. Thank you very much for inviting me, Christian. So Hamish, Knox, I am with Sandler Calgary, based in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. There are not many Hamish Knox is in North America. So if you Google Hamish Calgary or Hamish Sandler, you’ll find me very easily. You can also go to go.Sandler.com/Hamish, which is H, A, M, I, S, H, and you’ll find my website. And then I’m very easy to find on LinkedIn as well. So best way to get a hold of us and at Sandler Calgary, we support our clients in having more effective human to human interactions, professionally and personally, so they can sustainably scale their sales and eventually exit for their number, not the number they’re told to take.

Christian Klepp 39:57

Fantastic, fantastic. So Hamish, once again. Thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.

Hamish Knox 40:04

Thank you, Christian.

Christian Klepp 40:04

Alright. Bye for now.

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