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Idea Machines
William Bonvillian does a deep dive about his decade...
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Aug 2 2022 48m
Chapter 1 59 sec
Chapter 2 6 sec
to compare notes with him for years. And it was a pleasure. And an honor to finally catch up with him. Here's my conversation with WilliamChapter 3 15 sec
Ben: The place that I I'd love to start off is how did you get interested in, in DARPA and the DARPA model in the first place you've been writing about it for more than a decade now. And, and you're probably one of the, the foremost people who who've explored itChapter 4 36 sec
William: You know, I, I I worked for the us Senate as a advisor in the Senate for for about 15 years before coming to MIT then. And I I worked for a us Senator who is on the on the armed services committee. And so I began doing a substantial amount of that staffing, given my interest in science technology, R and D and you know, got early contact with DARPA with some of DARPA's both program managers and the DARPA directors, and kind of got to know the agency that way spent some time with them over in theirChapter 5 29 sec
officesChapter 6 18 sec
Ben: Yeah. And, and actually um, It sort of in your mind, what is the for, for people who I, I think tend to see different federal agencies that give money to researchers as, as all being in the same bucketChapter 7 10 sec
William: well? I mean, there's a big difference. So the NSF model is to support basic research. And they have, you know, the equivalent of projectChapter 8 59 sec
managers there and they, they don't do the selecting of the research projectsChapter 9 59 sec
vision of a new breakthrough technology areaChapter 10 59 sec
NSF, the program manager equivalent, you know, their big job is getting grant out the door and supervising a complex selection process by committee mm-hmm. The role of the, of the ARPA of the, of the DARPA program manager is selecting the award winners is just the beginning of the jobChapter 11 25 sec
or you, a company, you stuff, you trading ideas is a complicated process, but that's one of the tasks. That the DARPA program manager has, is to really build these thinking communities around problemsChapter 12 26 sec
Ben: and, and sort of actually to, to, to click on The, the how DARPA program managers interact with ideas. Do you have a sense of how they incentivize that idea sharing?Chapter 13 6 sec
William: Yeah. In, in some ways then it starts out at an all stage. So before, you know, a newChapter 14 19 sec
program manager arrives at DARPA and often they'll have, I mean, this could be apeChapter 15 1 sec
Ben: your opinion on that laterChapter 16 37 sec
William: Okay. Well, we're working away on this model hereChapter 17 58 sec
people who may be applying for the funding, but they'll, they'll look for the best people bringing together and get, you know, a day long process going um, often in several different locations to kind of think throughChapter 18
BenChapter 19 48 sec
And, and then also with, with those ideas do, do you have, like, in your, your having looked at this so much, do you have a sense of how much there there's this tension? You know, it's like people generally do the best research when they feel a lot of ownership over their own ideas and they feel like they're, they're really working onChapter 20 10 sec
William: Yeah. The program manager in communication with DARPA's office directors and director. Right, right. So it's a very flat organization. You know, andChapter 21 59 sec
there'll be an office director and a number of program managers working with that office director. For example in the field of, of biological technologies, a fairly new DARPA office set up about a decade agoChapter 22 59 sec
you test it out in these workshops, as I mentioned, right. As well as in dialogue with your colleagues at DARPA. And then if it looks like it's gonna work, then you can move it rapidly to the approval process. But DARPA is, you know, I mean, it's what its name saysChapter 23 52 sec
ideas. And put this out, this broad area announcement out and get people to start applyingChapter 24 6 sec
Ben: And, and then sort of to, to go sort of like one level down the hierarchy, if you will. WhenChapter 25 44 sec
they put out these, these BAAs do you have a sense for, of how often the performers will sort of either shift their focus to, to, towards a APA program or like how much sort of haggling is there between the performer and the, the program manager in terms of Sort of finding this balance between work that supports the, the broader program goals and work that sort of supports a researcher's already existing agendaChapter 26 14 sec
William: Yeah. It's, you know, the role of the program manager is to put out a new technological vision, you know, some kind of new breakthrough territoryChapter 27 59 sec
advance that can be implemented. It's gonna be applied. It's not discovery. It's implementation that they're oriented to. They want to create a new thing that can be implemented. So they're gonna put the vision out there and look the evaluation process. Is gonna look hard at whether or not this exact question you're raisingChapter 28 20 sec
and then sees who's willing to pursue that vision with him or herChapter 29 38 sec
Ben: Yeah. And just to, to shift a little bit you, you mentioned I a RPA and ARPA, E as, as other government agencies that, that used the same model you wrote an article in 2011 about ARPA E and, and I I'm interested inChapter 30 3 sec
model is applicable to an area more broadly?Chapter 31 55 sec
William: Yeah. I mean, look that's, and that's kind of a, that's kind of a key question, you know, if you wanna do a, if you wanna do a DARPA, like thing, is it gonna work in the territory that you wanna work in? But let's, let's look at this energy issue. You know, I was involved in, you know, some of the early discussions about creating an, aChapter 32 59 sec
in moving in venture capital towards new energy, clean tech technologies. So the venture capital sector in that timetable was rampingChapter 33 59 sec
saying stealth, rightChapter 34 59 sec
saw the challenge and he frankly rose to it. So if they weren't gonna get this, these technologies scaled up through venture capital, like everybody assumed would workChapter 35 59 sec
companies were there. And, you know, looking at what these technologies were to see how they could get to get stood up. So that was a way of exposing what was RPE was doing in a really big way. Right. RightChapter 36 59 sec
Was so successful and DARPA for a number of years later hired away RPE tech tech to tech, to market director to run and set up its own tech to market program. Right. Which was, you know, the, the new child is just taught the parent a lesson here is what the, what the point wasChapter 37 59 sec
prototyping through APA E and then some of the scale up could occur through throughChapter 38 48 sec
technology contributions in a lot of technology areas that have helped expand opportunity spacesChapter 39 10 sec
Ben: And, and another sort of just issue that I, I, I'm not sure is, is a real thing, but that I've noticed is that a difference between DARPA and RPE is thatChapter 40 31 sec
with, with DARPA, when you have the, the DOD acquiring technologies, they can sort of gather together all the different projects that were in, in, within a program and sort of integrate them into an entire system whereChapter 41 27 sec
William: No, Ben, I think that's, I think that's accurate. I knowChapter 42 46 sec
most of its it revolution stuff. Where it played a, you know, big role, for example, as you know, in the development of desktop computing and, and a huge role in, in supporting the internet development of the internet. Absolutely. You know, those got stood up, not particularly through DOD, they got stood up in the civilian sectorChapter 43 12 sec
Ben: And, and then, so, so sort of like looking forward to the, the future how do you see all these considerations playing out with with ARPA H the, the health ARPA that is, I think been approvedChapter 44 3 sec
but hasn't actually started doing anything yetChapter 45 55 sec
William: YeahChapter 46 59 sec
with your DARPA is you want to put your, your DARPA team on an island. You wanna protect that island and keep the bureaucracy away from it. Right? Let 'em do their thing out there and do great stuff. And don't let the bureaucracy, the suits interfere with them. Yeah. On the other hand, they really need a bridge back to the mainland to get their technologies scaled upChapter 47 59 sec
relationship thereChapter 48 59 sec
There could be a lot of following research that came out of NIH, NIH. So it's, this is a challenge. This is a challenge to set up the right kind of island bridge model for this new ARPA HChapter 49 47 sec
Yeah. Uh, And that took a while to kind of sort out. So there's a series of these issues that are gonna have to get well thought through for for this new ARPA H that opening culture is absolutely critical. Say more about that and it, yeah. In other words, the culture of strong program managers that are empowered and ready to pursue breakthrough technologiesChapter 50 11 sec
Ben: Yeah. And, and, and you've mentioned a, a couple of times the, sort of the effect of physical location on, on the culture. Have you, have you seen that, that, like whereChapter 51 5 sec
people are physically located really like have an effect on, on resulting cultures?Chapter 52 48 sec
William: Yeah. I mean, look, obviously post pandemic, we're exploring remote work a lotChapter 53 4 sec
Ben: And, and so just sort of to, to take, to take a, a right turnChapter 54 24 sec
and, and talk a little bit about your, your work on, on advanced manufacturing. This is, this is an area I personally know much less about. But like, I guess one, one sort of basic thing is I think a lot of people Like don't have a good sense of what sort of advanced manufacturing actually meansChapter 55 34 sec
William: Yeah, let me, let me tell you know, a little bit of a story here. Yeah, please. The there are a suite of new technologies. Corresponding processes that are kind of emerging, right. And some have, you know, some have emergedChapter 56 59 sec
linked. You're doing continuous analytics on each machine, but then able to connect them to see the processes as a whole that kind of it revolution sideChapter 57 21 sec
available. Some are starting to enter. Some are further back like Flo for example. But they could completely transform the way in which we make things. And that's what advanced manufacturing is. Can we move to these new technologies and, and the processes that go with them in completely transforming the way in which we makeChapter 58 25 sec
Ben: Yeah. And, and like, so, so this is, I'm very interested in this and it, it feels like there isn't like, like sort of answering that question involves real research. Right? Cause you, you sort of need to, to rethink processes, you need to rethink how you do design. But at the same time, there, there aren't a lot ofChapter 59 11 sec
William: Yeah, that's look that this has been a big gap in our R and D portfolio in the United States. So at the end of world war II, Ben you know, veever Bush designs, the postwarChapter 60 59 sec
system for science. Right, right. So. We do this amazing connected system in world war IIChapter 61 59 sec
And then we began during the war with a lot of federal research funding and universities really for the first timeChapter 62 59 sec
your fingers hoping something is gonna happen in that pipeline. And whereas in world war II, every stage that pipeline was pretty well organized in a coordinated kind of wayChapter 63 48 sec
to bring over lots of immigrants to help lead science in the usChapter 64
Ben: took that as a givenChapter 65 9 sec
William: almost right. That's a given we're always gonna have that. Right. But he was wrong. WeChapter 66 59 sec
you That ended up costing the us it's electronic sector leadership in the electronic sector and leadership in the auto sector, two industry sectors that we had completely dominated. So, and then, you know, comes to China and we have further erosion as wellChapter 67 36 sec
doesn't we don't do manufacturingChapter 68 8 sec
Ben: do you look, I guess, like, what are some of the most sort of promising efforts in that area, in, in that you've seen?Chapter 69 13 sec
William: Well, there's, there's amazing work going on that we already see in a whole new kind of robotics. You know, the old industrial robots weighed 10 times. They're very dangerous. You have to put cages around them and make sure that the workers don't go near themChapter 70 59 sec
And they do, you know, they lift up something heavy and they'll do like one perfect spot weld, and then they'll move to the next, you know, next piece of, you know, next piece, moving down the assembly lineChapter 71 59 sec
and end up with a smaller part with real limits to what the shape and dimensions and content of that, that, that part can be additive enables you to build a part from scratch with these, with powders shape it to exactly the role you want often with new materials and we're moving intoChapter 72 27 sec
can bring potentially with new materials, like ceramics to creating those turbine blades is really quite dramatic. So there's a whole series of industrial sectors that'll be suited to, to additiveChapter 73 31 sec
Ben: And, and something that I'm particularly interested in is, is soChapter 74 4 sec
sort of like institutions that are sort of trying to do that sort of work?Chapter 75 54 sec
William: Yeah. I mean this, this whole idea of, you know, for a long time, you know, we gear. The design had to fit the manufacturing, right? So we moved to, you know, design for manufacturing, right. To make it easily manufacturableChapter 76 59 sec
technologies to really take a look at a production. Operation, not as this, a series of isolated machines where material has to be carted from one machine suite to the next machine suiteChapter 77 59 sec
of the opposite. You know, the robot will display some jobs, but much more frequently, the robot will create all kinds of new possibilities within existing jobs. Yeah. And then thirdly, there will be jobs to get created because we need to make robots rightChapter 78 11 sec
change that people have got. So I think in a way the new manufacturing system is going be, you know, more people centric than it's been beforeChapter 79 1 sec
Ben: of people just acting like robotsChapter 80 17 sec
William: Yeah. Lot people act acting like robots. It's people, you know, doing the organization and designing and management and the systems and the programming and the processed way that we're gonna need. YeahChapter 81 27 sec
Ben: This was awesome. I'm so gratefulChapter 82
